Objective, Non-partisan, Thread about He alth Care

“oh crap, we b on the same page??? is it 2012 yet? ;) :D”

“so crash, i offer real opinion and you ignore it?”

“I don't see the reforms as a sustainable system. And to be truthful I think the government knows it too. The simple fact of business is that when extra costs are incurred those costs are passed on to the consumers. Those of us who do have and pay for insurance will be paying those increases which will only rise and rise as we go on. And where is the government money going to come from? Debt. If we're going to be forced into this type of system lets at least do it in such a way to minimize debt such as a national sales tax. And we haven't even begun to see what all pork is in there. And once again I ask, name one thing the feds do well or efficiently that doesn't lose money.

But I agree with Baume; this is unconstitutional and outside of the federal government's power.”

“i really hesitate to post this outside of fuego, but here goes.

post your reasons why you are pleased or dis-pleased with this bill. please limit your comments to the content of the bill, so it doesnt turn fuego. it would be helpful if you could cite what section you are talking about

in b4 naive, netnanny, etc�
crash bang
5:26:49 PM
3/22/10



Nicely played, Crash, lol. I don�t believe for a second that you believe a word of that.

Having said that, the question about disliking what�s in the bill or whether or not the bill has been read should only be asked of the people who approve of it and/or voted for it. They didn�t read it. They are the real dopes. The majority of those of us who reject the bill do so on its face. Content is irrelevant. The United States F�n government has no business having any control over my health. Period. I don�t care if it�s prevention thru lifestyle or treatment. If you (not you, Crash) don�t think Uncle Sam will try to micromanage your way of life to control costs then you are not very smart. There are a myriad of examples of this happening already at state and local levels---just look at NYC for one.

There isn�t a single TTer here who is dumb enough (that�ll probably come back to haunt me) to hold up Medicare as a shining example of a successful government control of healthcare. The government, historically, has not been able to successfully control anything. Why turn over more?

The funniest and most telling part about the chest thumping yesterday over the bill passage wasn�t because the bill passed---it was because �the other guy lost.� I find that hilarious. No one here (except for Violin, advocate of more government control at every turn) will stand up and proudly take ownership over what happened and the way it happened. In the words of Eric Cartman, �that is awwwesome.�”

“The strange thing to me is that I hear anti abortion people advancing a "non governmental" intrusion theory.

Does anyone other than me see how "pro choice" they sound with that?”

“The strange thing to me is that I hear pro abortion people advancing a "governmental" intrusion theory.

Does anyone other than me see how "anti abortion" they sound with that?�”

“Nicely played, Crash, lol. I don�t believe for a second that you believe a word of that.

Nicely played? It's the weakest troll of the year. This could have been brought up on the other 50 health reform threads.”

“so crash, i offer real opinion and you ignore it?�

im sorry, sweetie. i wasnt ignoring you. thank you for your opinion”

“Come on, he got almost 60 posts. That's got to count for something.”

“Excellent point NC

The big question in my mind will be if the SC will be consistent

However that aside, I think this shows that the most of the people who are either for or against this are ignoring the underlying idea of whether it is "intrusive". As with most issues people are basing what is "unconstitutional" on what they like or dislike

its sort of like when the first amendment people have a rally to oppose a second amendment issue. I am seeing this in the same light

if the SC rules this to be constitutional the contrast between Roe v. Wade and the opinion in this case will be interesting reading. However if it is upheld, I would think that the Court would be poised to rethink the abortion issue.”

“not a troll, nigal. i know it's the trendy thing to do now, to be cynical and call everything a troll, no one is earnest anymore, but im seriously asking. yea, im late to the game, i shouldve asked a long time ago, but ive avoided this topic like the plague because of the sh7tstorm that it quickly became”

“The Health Care Bill is unconstitutional.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204518504574416623109362480.html

The unconstitutional Pelosi Health Care Bill will cost 940 billion dollars and will maybe end up with 32 million more Americans with some sort of (dumbed down & rationed) insurance. That comes out to $29,375 per person. A little more expense when the government does something compared to private industry.

Every country that has tried to run health care ends up with a higher health care death rate than the U.S. system in place prior to this week.
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/11/beyond-those-health-care-numbers-us.html”

“My problem with the health care bill is that at 2,000 pages I seriously doubt that anyone who voted for it really knew what they were voting for. They probably know very well the 3-5 pages of pork put in there to buy their vote but have no clue about 1500 of the other pages provisions.

Any bill over 10 pages should automatically be void.

Remember folks that "ignorance of the law is no excuse", so there is also no excuse for writing any law that is 2,000 pages long. How can anyone NOT be ignorant of what is in there.
_______________________________________

Next problem, I will call it the Conservative problem (Nothing to do with any current political party).

My 1040 tax form this year (page 100) had a couple of little pie charts, income and expenditure for 2008.
Social Security and Medicare are 37% of expenses and only 30% of income, ergo they do NOT pay for themselves.
Another problem is reporting, I pay SEPARATE taxes for Soc. Security and Medicare, why are they lumped together for reporting.

Answer- One is running a much bigger deficit than the other and the reporting (partially) hides this.

Where does that 7% shortfall come from?
- Borrowing to cover deficit 15%
This means Communist China, accepting US Bonds instead of cash for all Chinese mad goods, but we owe them.

We cannot pay for the Medicare we have now, even without the Medicare/Social Security shortfall we cannot pay for the government we have now.

So we make insurance mandatory, and mandate that insurance companies cannot drop people.
Insurance companies are in the business of collecting premiums, - NOT paying claims.
Their Actuaries are real busy right now calculating how much premiums will have to increase to cover the risk of paying for incurables, and as we are all now mandated to have insurance - we now have a Tax paid directly to the insurance companies, where our elected official has no control and cannot vote against it. If government tries to artificially cap insurance rates, expect a lot of insurance shell companies that can fold if expenses get too high.

New Jersey experimented with that in auto insurance in the late 80's early 90's
Required a Govt pool for uninsurable motorists that the insurance companies would not touch. The pool went broke - quickly and of course the taxpayers footed the bill for that failure.”

“so, instead of laughing about it, point to a section that really creases your taint�
crash bang
5:33:45 PM

to me it's not about the sections, but the bill as a whole...health care is not a right or a privilege, it is a basic necessity like shelter, food, and water...just like those the government has a role to play in keeping the supply safe and free from corruption but it has no responsibility in providing it

I'm looking forward to the end of lifetime caps and denials for pre-existing conditions.

this is bunk...i'm in the insurance business...pre-ex allows insurance companies to avoid something called adverse selection, which basically means only sick people seek insurance...i admit, insurance companies have abused pre-ex but to limit them as much as this bill does is anti business...we need to remember, insurance companies are for profit

I hope that once millions of people are forced to buy policies the private market that there will be enough of an outcry that Medicare will be expanded to anyone who wants to buy in, even employer sponsored individuals.

this is unconstitutional...the constitution specifically says you can not force citizens to buy something from the private market...13 states have already joined together threatening to take it to the supreme court”

“The insurance vultures are going to cash in bigtime on this one.

Crying all the way to the bank.....”

“thriftyhiker - those answers do not meat crash bang's stringent rules. Please delete your opinion.”

“maybe we should make all insurance companies not for profit?...heck, why stop with insurance companies...maybe everything should be not for profit”

“http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-22/tenet-leads-health-care-stocks-higher-as-industry-reform-passes.html

�We continue to believe money will rotate back into healthcare stocks now that the uncertainty of �reform� is lifted,� Charles Boorady, an analyst at Citigroup Inc. in New York, wrote in a report sent to clients today....

The approval of the health-care legislation by the U.S. House removes a significant �overhang� from the industry and will be viewed positively, Credit Suisse Group AG analyst Ralph Giacobbe said today."




http://www.taylormarsh.com/2010/03/22/obamas-republican-health-care-bill/

"Obama�s Republican Health Care Bill"

"EJ Dionne, one of the biggest insider Dems, but also one of the only ones honest enough to write it, said it through a title on Friday: Why Democrats Are Fighting for a Republican Health Plan. A snippet is below:

Yes, Democrats have rallied behind a bill that Republicans�or at least large numbers of them�should love. It is built on a series of principles that Republicans espoused for years.

Republicans have said that they do not want to destroy the private insurance market. This bill not only preserves that market but strengthens it by bringing in millions of new customers. The plan before Congress does not call for a government �takeover� of health care. It provides subsidies so more people can buy private insurance."

”

“thriftyhiker - those answers do not meat crash bang's stringent rules. Please delete your opinion.�
HighPLainsDrifter
11:19:28 AM

unlike you, i'm capable of having a conversation with crash, or anyone for that matter, with out insulting them or feeling like i've been insulted, but thanks for the advice”

“maybe you should read HIS rules again jagoff



crash bang - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0lA6XCt3gM&sns=em”

“i read his rule and instead of being an @ssbag about it i chose to take the grown up route and give him my answer rather than insulting him”

“We continue to believe money will rotate back into healthcare stocks now that the uncertainty of �reform� is lifted,� Charles Boorady, an analyst at Citigroup Inc. in New York, wrote in a report sent to clients today....

of course it will, if people are forced to buy insurance”

“you did not meet his rule

he only wants to know about things IN the bill, not the principle of it”

“The two signature programs most like what was just passed are Social Security and Medicare/aid. They are both insolvent. Not just insolvent. They are wildly exponentially unimaginably insolvent. They are unrecoverable. They also cost a ridiculous amount more than they were supposed to because, at base, they are Ponzi schemes.

What was just passed is just the same. None of us will ever see the benefits promised from any of these,”

“
You can't handle the truth. No truth-handler, you.
I deride your truth-handling abilities.

Sideshow Bob
(Kelsey Grammer)
�Sideshow Bob Roberts� (#6.5 1994)
The Simpsons

”

“message from roseymonster being ignored
“http://rawstory.com/2010/03/olbermann-gop-tea-party-you-wheel-political-toyota/”
roseymonster
12:03:40 PM
3/23/10


PLEASE STOP TEA-PARTIERS! WE DISCREDIT YOU! PLEASE STOP W/ YOUR MESSAGE! BE SILENCED! (crying)”

“Why isn't this a gear thread?”

““not a troll, nigal. i know it's the trendy thing to do now, to be cynical and call everything a troll, no one is earnest anymore,”

jesus christ [eye roll]”

“lol at pedxing.”

“I like this ship. It's exciting!”

“I haven't had a chance to read the Bill. I thought I was going to have five days, between the time Congress passed the Bill and the President signed it.”

“At least we'll all save $2,500 per person per year on our premiums according to Obama's repeated promise. I can't wait for that to happen!!!

/rolls eyes at Obama's LIE”

“Thankfully, with Obamacare passed, America's poor urban democraps will no longer desire to violently rob, assault, and murder the American middle and upper classes.”

“Stovie, that will happen after illegal drugs become legal, stay tuned for next week's bill to pass.”

“next next bill is to allow all the illegal drug dealers from Mexico to be here legally”

“Something I'm curious about: is the annual fine for not having insurance less than the average annual premium for insurance?”

“John McKennedy said he would not help pass an immigration bill or anything else.”

“Thankfully, with Obamacare passed, t*ltypoo will no longer desire to violently, assault, and murder the American middle and upper class's grandchildren.”

“So $700? If that's significantly less than the annual cost of insurance for a healthy young productive person, it seems conceivable that it would be worth it just to pay the fine.”

“Ah I read that wrong. Still that is only $1500 for someone making $60K
last edited: 3/24/10 8:16:00 AM”

“You are for illegal money in the hands of drug dealer or you are for legal money in the hands of drug dealers, that is your choice.”

“Still that is only $1500 for someone making $60KStill that is only $1500 for someone making $60K

Yes, the poor pay less.

Also, note that it's per household - or whichever is greater. I read that if you and your spouse both make $60K, you'd be fined $3000.”

“So can I pay the $3000 fine, get $300,000 in medical care paid for by the rest of you and come out ahead? Cool! I love Obamacare!”

“Thankfully, with Obamacare passed, America's poor urban democraps will no longer desire to violently rob, assault, and murder the American middle and upper classes.

How about poor, white trash Mississippians?”

“yeah, that's what I'm thinking noncon. Why pay a lot more than the fine for insurance, when if you get cancer you can just sign up for it then as they can't turn you away for pre-existing conditions?”