Safety in the Backcountry.

“�"I am wearing this getup on my next hike."
Wounded Knee

What, a wig and dyed beard?�
MarkO
1:38:41 PM
1/07/08

Jeans, and buttoned down jean shirt with two uzi's hanging off of my pack”

““there needs to be some level of awareness of your surroundings. Sadly WAAAAY too many people in this day and time have lost that."

Excellent point. And this also brings up a point I have made many times when it comes to carrying a weapon. A properly trained person carrying a hand gun is less likely to be prayed upon in the first place because they have a heightened sense of awareness many and most non gun carriers do not have. Awareness is a responsibility that goes along with the right to carry. The last thing I want to do is to have to shoot someone, criminal or not, so I avoid situations and conditions that would force me to shoot someone.”

“A nice little gun to shoot attacking dogs might be nice.”

“Jeans, and buttoned down jean shirt with two uzi's hanging off of my pack

Don't forget your Russian beaver hat. :P”

“�A nice little gun to shoot attacking dogs might be nice.� - StoveStomper

Don't forget to shoot the horses, too.

And unleashed children.”

“A properly trained person carrying a hand gun is less likely to be prayed upon in the first place ... I'm not sure that's true Nigal.

I'm actually excluding most of the 'gun nuts' on here - as you guys seem to take things fairly seriously - but reading posts on the other side, you can seen a co ckiness in their posts, when they start telling you how they'll take out a charging Grizzly if they need to.

From what I can tell there seems to be a great difference between how skilled many people think they are and how skilled they actually are.”

“That is kinda hot WK!”

“

semi-pacifist = I believe in self defense providing it does not involve the death of another individual.
last edited: 1/07/08 3:46:16 PM”
ramblinrev

Sorry, but my mind is already decided on this. If I should be attacked by someone with a weapon, it is likely that one of us is going to die.

Should I be attacked physically and I am able to avoid or block the attack, I will be attempting to break bones of the attacker(s). My legal defense is already prepared for these actions.
I use a kubotan
as a key ring, as well as a reserve weapon.
Martial Arts Superstore
Also, I had two hours of training on using it together with other martial arts techniques. Additionally, I have a small, metal flashlight that can be used as a kubotan, too. If the assailant's face is bleeding, he will likely flee.

Besides a good foundation in aikijutsu, defensive combat, I carry pepper spray and a bo as a hiking/walking stick. The bo is a weapon made from hard wood and I have had training using it as well. Against a gun I can do little, unless an opportunity occurs.”

“There is something to be said for the idea that a trained, armed citizenry knows how to use their firearm. I know, for myself, that even if I were trained, I would be unlikely to be able to shoot someone. Personal statement. I am not a gun hater. I do not want guns banned. _I_ just don't want a gun. I expect you to grant me the right to that decision. The same goes for the mace and pepper spray. I've owned it. I don't want it. Personal decision. Take it or leave it.

Life and death situations become critical when one is afraid of death. Beyond that... they aren't so critical. Don't get me wrong. I am not anxious to shuffle off this mortal coil. But if that's where it goes, so be it. Does an attacker deserve hurt in the form of self defense? Absolutely. Does an attacker deserve death? Not in my book. Personal statement. Do me the honor of not discounting my personal convictions. Disagree if you want. No problem. But you are not me.

Incidentally... I have looked death in the eyes, both literally and figuratively. So please do not use the "you'd feel differently if..." argument on me.”

“Pitbull, you are nothing but a trouble maker. I like you. Anyone who wants to use keys or spray, at least you are thinking about the risk and are probably aware of your surroundings. RedRoxx44, your technique sounds very well thought out, and practical. its about being aware of your surroundings, and knowing when to start acting like a tough person. But I wouldn't rule out carrying a handgun once in a while.

I have a hard time hiking in tight jeans like Chuck N. is wearing. Plus is makes him look like an 80s retread.”

“nm..I don't even wanna jump in this one.
last edited: 1/07/08 3:39:18 PM”

““nm..I don't even wanna jump in this one.
last edited: 1/07/08 3:39:18 PM”
GatherNoMoss
3:38:57 PM
1/07/08

You have something against Chuck? ;o)”

“ramblinrev - If someone attacks me with a weapon, I could be killed. I do not want him to have a second chance, like after a recovery period, be it minutes or months.

On a physical attack, I have a good, medical reason to try to prevent a repeat attack. Broken bones will achieve that, as well as end the conflict. "
A purpose of Martial Arts is to end a conflict before it escalates into a fight." Even a broken finger might achieve this.

---

BTW, it is not legal to carry a Kubotan onto an aircraft.
last edited: 1/07/08 4:06:37 PM”

“nowslimmer if you read my post as a statement of what others should do then I did not emphasize the personal statement disclaimer enuf. You do not need to defend your decision to me any more than I need to defend mine to you. I understand and I do not say you are wrong. I say... I have a different perspective.”

“ramblinrev - Thanks. I am in agreement. I am not trying to argue, just to clarify my feelings.

BTW, my bo is not legal on an aircraft, either. However, I can carry a cane!

Once I almost used pepper spray against a charging, black bear. The bear stopped just in time. A second time I tried to use it against a bear that was under my tarp investigating my bedroll!”

“Horses and unleashed children don't attack on the trail, jonnycat. ;-)
last edited: 1/07/08 4:53:11 PM”

“I don't think Chuck Norris would fit in a backpack, so what about a stun gun? I've seen Tasers that fit over the knuckles. Does anyone here have any experience with one?
last edited: 1/07/08 5:42:13 PM”

“Maybe it's just me...but I think stabbing someone with a knife or jabbing them in the eyes is more difficult to do than shooting him/her. The first two defenses require a more "personal feeling"....if that is the right phrase.

It's similar to wars then and now....back then, you literally have to hack your opponent dead.....now you can shoot your enemy 100+ yards away. The feelings are not the same.....

Back to the original question....
Awareness of your surroundings is number 1....being prepared is number 2....and having the mindset to hurt (And kill if necessary) an attacker is number 3.”

“Thread degredation---spent 45 minutes observing this cutie near a camp we had. We actually had to run the little guy off when we started to build a fire as he was hungrily consuming acorns he got out of some bark he peeled off a tree. I'd rather encounter this guy than some two legged creatures I know.


last edited: 1/07/08 5:45:44 PM”

“Dont we all have a bottle of bear spray? why not keep that handy and just wack the loser with a 25' wall of pain from a few yards...

Plus the sight of a 10oz bottle of bear spray pointed at anyone should keep them at bay.

Bear spray is designed to open pored and soak in, that would be pretty harsh on mr hilton.”

“From what I can tell there seems to be a great difference between how skilled many people think they are and how skilled they actually are.

I feel the most prized skill is being good enough to not have to even draw a weapon yet still knowing how to when it's forced on you. I find those who talk the most shyt about "busting a cap in someone's ass" are generally the most full of shyt. They are the most prone to spontaneous incontinence when something really does happen.”

“Hi to all east-of-the-Mississippi hikers!
I have loved hiking in many different areas of N Georgia, Some AT, etc. Do any of you remember several years ago a mother, daughter and friend from Brazil being killed in Yosemite? The killer was a night porter at the inn. The same guy decapitated a female ranger in the Park. I don't think it matters who you are or if you are armed, unarmed, trained to fight or a diplomat. Predators are out there. I now live in small town USA near Yellowstone NP. I am still a capable hiker but with a six year old daughter. I've taken her on a couple of mother-daughter outings that all went so well ---BUT--- my hyper vigilance has taken it's toll on me. It's ALMOST easier to just say "forget it" and stay home. What I used to do on my own has changed dramatically since having a child. When I think about the places I've been and how blessed I have been to not meet a traumatic end---I grieve for her, her family and others who have been lost to two legged predators. May the predator become prey.

I miss the lush foliage of eastern mtns,
WWG”

“There is nothing that will change the outlook of a sane person like having a child.”

“Don't let it stop you sweetheart, I made campers/backpackers/hikers out of all of my kiddos by taking them out there. I have 3 adult kids and one teenager. My husband rarely went with us, he went on a handful of carcamps with us but that's as far as he ever got. What my kids do now, is because of me. I instilled not a lack of fear, but a spirit of boldness.”

“AWESOME. I agree. When we are out there I am teaching her basic survival things that work ANYWHERE like pay attention to: your surroundings, that little voice in your head, to what is BEHIND YOU, etc. I am also working on tempering her youthful boldness into one of thoughtful boldness!
Just a note: I've run into to 'creepies' who are hired on in the summer to run the remote campgrounds here in N. Wyoming. There have been a few times I did not feel safe in a campground and turned tail and got out before the next day.

Here's to smart hiking-
WWG”

“I think the only time I ever ran into someone who made me uncomfortable, it was in a state or county campground. I remember making note to my kids who were with me at the time, "watch that man, if he should approach any of you, run to a ranger or another campsite, feel free to scream like hell!" He left that evening.

I've always told my kids to pay attention to their surroundings, to look and listen. I've also taught them to listen to their gut, if someone or something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't, go with that feeling and get yourself to a safe place immediately. Another thing, you have to teach kids WHAT to scream. There are few things that people will actually pay attention to, screaming children is NOT one of them, (the same way we don't pay attention to car alarms anymore). We will however listen if we feel that WE are at risk. When my adult children were younger I used to tell them to scream "FIRE!". This generally gets attention. The new thing to have your kids scream is, "YOU ARE NOT MY PARENT!" Scream whatever works, scream everything, kick, bite, punch, scratch and scream. You have to make it too much trouble to hold onto you.

The real thing to do with your kids though is role play the various situations that might happen so that they will know how to react quickly without having to think. It's what I've always done with my kids and it helped my daughter tremendously when she was 14 and some guy tried to get her into his truck on the street. She screamed and ran in the opposite direction of his vehicle, she ran into a nearbye fast food place and had someone call the police.

Do you know what ticked me off? My sister-in-law and my 30something year old niece telling her it was no big deal, that guys always hit on pretty girls like that and she shouldn't be so upset, she was being over the top about it for crying. Yeah, cause 30 or 40yr old guys in trucks always pull over and pick up teenage girls and that's normal, right? (she was staying with my sis-in-law at the time) Well, anyway I spent enough time on the phone with her to validate her feelings of being frightened and told her that her aunt and cousin were wrong, that it was NOT normal for men to do that and she was perfectly sane and even intelligent to react as she did and that I was so proud of her for her fast reaction. She got through it ok, but they never did catch the guy even with a vehicle description and a partial plate.”

“whatever Mutt... you can run around in your room pumping your fist in the air screaming I won I won... have fun.... - Rev

Such hostility, and why? Because I offered sound advice. Look at what Nowslimmer says. He's been trained and practices hand-to-hand techniques. But even he carries pepper spray.

Be careful not to invest too much pride into your opinions. It's one of the deadliest sins, no?”

“We are taught something called "Presence" which is attitude and the way you hold yourself.

90% of the time in a serious situation if you go in with a STRAIGHT back, serious attitude we find that many of the S-Bags of society will be respectful. With a female I would think it may be a simple as keeping a pair of those "trailer hitch nuts" on your pack and explain that was the last guy who tried something (LOL).

Seriously attitude is a lot of it. Know your capability, know how to handle yourself. And while there are occasions where I do have a "little friend" packed. I can also do some damage with my Gerber Hatchet and a number of other things.

Years ago we used to teach self defense for women and I remember the two lessons that made the best impact.
1. 3 Targets Throat, Gnip Gnops, Knee caps (8lbs pressure from the side)
2. Urinate on yourself if you can. Most rapists for some reason are disgusted by this.

One night on the trail with the Troop we had some girls ask to join our group for the night (protection from some wastes of skin that were following them). My Scoutmaster (at the time) looked up and said,"You are welcome to join us but I can't assure your safety.(LOL).

I could have used the Bear spray to keep my Scouts from the Leader site (LOL). I did notice the HUMAN debris moved down the trail.”

“Urinate on yourself if you can. Most rapists for some reason are disgusted by this. --XL400236


o_0”

“The material I have seen says go for the gnip gnops only if you fully intend to rip them off. Then fully do so.

When I was first making the transition to pacifist self defense I ran across a book on the subject. It was quite interesting. There were three strategies presented depending in part on the situation. One was continual movement. It can be very difficult to control a body that appears to be having a seizure. The second was total rigid tension. It can be very difficult to control a person who is absolutely completely rigid. The third was absolute total relaxation. There is a difference between this and submission. The difference may be hard to discern but it is real. If you have ever tried to pick up or move a total dead weight it can be very difficult.

As with everything else, there is no one fix all. But to have as many tools in your tool kit as you can use effectively and with confidence is very important. I have seen these in practice and they can be impressive. Of course ymmv”

“nowslimmer, thanks for your post...i've never seen those before...i'm definitely going to look into one of those for my wife”

“Be careful not to invest too much pride into your opinions. It's one of the deadliest sins, no?”
Mutt
8:11:04 AM
1/08/08

no”

“Oh, I thought the fall of Satan, the original sin, violation of the first commandment, etc, kind of made it special. Well, you're the rev, not me.”

“Well, you're the rev, not me.”
Mutt
10:30:15 AM
1/08/08

exactly”

“Do you feel safe - No, so I take precautions.

I bring a first aid kit.
I bring an extra couple of days of food and extra fuel to cook the food.
I make sure someone (SO) knows where I am, when I expect to be back, and when and who (Ranger) to contact if I am not back on time.

As can be seen by the list above, I fear injury with no one around, not injury from another.

Interactions with others is the same everywhere, and there have been people I prefer to have more than usual space from.

I am always more cautious if I have others depending on me, especially children, or women with little back country experience.

If a person chooses to be armed they must answer a personal question first, "under what circumstances do I use it?", and they should always use awareness and personal presence to avoid those circumstances. Walk or talk your way out of trouble.
If you feel sufficiently threatened at a trailhead that you need to display a weapon it is time to get straight back in the car and go home.

Way more people get struck by lightening, or killed by bee sting than back country predator; person or bear.
I am also very wary of feral dogs, met some once, handfuls of dried brush and gotta love a reliable lighter.”

“Rev...gotta argue with the following.

Continual movement...hate to tell you but from my training most assaults they want some REACTION from the female.

Total Rigidity you can only keep that up for so long.

Total relaxation, (can be good for avoiding hurting yourself if you are restrained).

I prefer to advise make noise, fight like your life depends on it. Becuase it does. Scratch, bite claw spit do anything to dissuade your attacker.

IF you get the upper hand...DISABLE THE ATTACKER. pure and simple you have to disarm them to where they are cannot get the upper hand on you.

In a weapon situation sorry...they will die. If you can mentally accept that decision go for it..if not learn to relax and take what;s coming.

The wierd thing is that if you GET the ATTITUDE or PRESENCE that you can't wait to kick their asses, as a rule they won't bother you.”

“I went running last night after work...Before I got home, It was gettting dark, I was out alone. I wondered briefly if I should have brought some sort of protection. I thought, If I were to get abducted, I could drop my MP3 player or my hat and that would leave a clue..then I thought, well no, some kid would come and grab it before the cops even knew I was missing. It sucks to worry about everything you do. I don't think you can live that way. Bad things happen all the time. If we live constantly worried and trying to avoid any potentially dangerous situation, we will die having lived a very boring life. I will continue to run outside any chance I get. And I guess if I am murdered while I am doing it, atleast I was doing something I enjoyed. Atleast the chances of that happening are less than if I lived in say Afganistan..”

“There's no reason to go around worrying about it. All you need to do is have a developed sense of situational awareness and a plan for self-defense that works for you. It becomes second nature over time.

Just one piece of advice for females I got from a cop friend years ago: never get into the car. Even if the perp is pointing a gun at you, never get in their car. A rapist's intention is (usually) not to gun down someone on the street. Even if you do get shot running away, you have a statistically good chance of recovering. But, if you get in that car, your life is forfeit.
last edited: 1/08/08 9:41:46 AM”

“Now NG - I think people running in the dark with MP3 players on is not so smart. I used to get up between 5-6 am on winter mornings and would often see women out jogging with their MP3 players on.
Bearing in mind this was in one of the nastiest parts of one of the most violent cities in the country.
Not only running around in the dark, but you're also taking out your sense of hearing - I've never understood that.”

“You guys almost scare me off. If I read this threat/d I wonder if a normal person can walk across a street in the US without running and ducking for cover? Are you at a war in your homeland? What to hell you doing?”

“XL... I think you missed the point. "Depending on the situation"... and the "tool box approach".. That was not an exclusive list. That was a partial listing from another source. Argue with them if you want to. As a toolbox approach I think it is valid, depending on the situation.”

“The other thing about the previous post you need to remember is that this is from a perspective of "inflict no harm". I realize that this perspective will be scoffed at and rejected here. It already has been. However, there are those, who for one reason or another hold that perspective intentionally. I do not share it 100% but I do honor the integrity of those who do.”

“Euro, come on over and I'll show you parts of Baltimore that will turn you white.”

“I always felt much safer on the trail than for example running at the local city park.

Just to be on the safe side I guess it would be a good idea not to post ANYWHERE if you are planing on hiking solo. so...don't post a freaking map off your solo hike.

I am guilty of that too...I am trusting you guys way too much.”

“I walk in the Breast Cancer 3-Day and one of the 1st rules of safety is that you should NOT use an mp3 player, walkman, etc.--it's not allowed on the training walks because of safety reasons... i.e. you are distracted and not fully aware of your environment, therefore, you can't hear anyone coming from behind you nor can you hear a car coming....

Once, while I was a college student, I had to walk from a parking lot about a 1/2 mile from campus--in the dark and near a wooded area. I was really scared (don't like the dark much and generally tried not to walk alone at night). However, since I did not have someone to walk with me, I pulled my jacket up high and hunched my shoulders up to make myself as "big" as possible. (I'm only 5'4") I didn't want anyone to see "scared" in my body language.

Luckily for me, nothing happened.... (this was in the age and time before cell phones, so I would have been out of luck if something had happened.)

Now-a-days, I just try not to put myself in a situation where something could happen to me.

I have done the fistful of keys trick on the rare occasions that I'm out shopping late and have to go to the mall parking lots by myself, which does make me feel a little safer. I used to carry a small can of pepper spray until I decided that it wouldn't be helpful if I were to accidentally get sprayed by it myself...

Years ago, my sister kept a short knife (ABOUT 1-1/2 Inches) on her keyring-- it was similar to the shape of an arrowhead and could be held like a brass knuckle (and be lethal). I don't think she carries it any more (due to having to travel a lot). She actually had to return it to the car when we went to a nightclub years ago--they considered it a lethal weapon...)”

“well it wasnt completely dark yet. And I am aware of the dangers of running with an MP3, but I get too distracted without one. I cannot keep my focus. I keep the volume pretty low and can usually tell if a car is coming up behind me, but yeah, if someone were to run up on me on foot, I'd be screwed.”

“So lets move this on a little - what do people do when strangers come and talk to them on the trail? Hang about too long?”

“I talk politely to them provided they don't trigger my freakometer.”

“I will continue to be polite. I will continue to believe there is a lot of good in the world and I can be part of it. I will continue to use good judgment and remain aware of what is going on around me.

Life has to go on. I have to live in this environment. The most I can do is to make the best of it.

Locking myself behind doors is not an option. Also, I went armed for several years. When I practiced law, I was never more than a step away from a weapon unless in court or going to or from.

I will not go back to living that way.”

“wow, this is cool...it's a kubotan that's also a marker



http://cgi.ebay.com/COLD-STEEL-SHARKIE-PEN-MARKER-KUBOTAN-SELF-DEFENSE-91SP_W0QQitemZ350011993160QQihZ022QQcategoryZ16044QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem”