Toyota #2 in US Sales, Ford #3

“I agree Nigal - conservative ideology in action has created a dire mess. Weren't we told that this was the CEO administration - that we give these people everything they want and they'll help America flourish.

I guess they didn't mention that economic collapse was part of the deal.

For all my calls to help GM, if this weren't happening in the middle of a dire situation then I'd say let them fall. The trouble is can a country already suffering significant difficulties handle that - especially when other companies reliant on the business go down.

It would also be different if the other two were doing ok. The fact that the entire American auto industry could disintegrate within a few weeks should be of concern to everyone.”

“conservative ideology in action has created a dire mess. Weren't we told that this was the CEO administration - that we give these people everything they want and they'll help America flourish.

I guess they didn't mention that economic collapse was part of the deal. - y2

Everything they want, AND MORE. The "more" is socialism injected into the companies. It is the more, the UNIONS, that has led to economic collapse.

It's the socialism aspect of banking and auto industries that has led to their failures.”

“... and our education system.”

“For every 1 GM worker on the line there are 3 that are sitting at home on pension.”

“I think for the moment the priority needs to be to stop the dominoes falling.

There is a pent-up consumer demand building, if we can stop the bad news, or even give some good news for just a short time then people will gradually start easing the purse strings.”

“I think GM is due to unload a lot of its healthcare responsibilities for retirees to a trust at the turn of the year isn't it?”

“"blah blah blah pretending to be oblivious to the fact that socialistic ideas injected into a capitalistic economy including unions have destroyed America blah blah blah"

- y2
last edited: 11/12/08 6:16:11 AM”

“"responsibilities" mandated by unions”

“It is trying to dump them back on the unions who will, in turn, try and dump them on the tax payers.”

“Which is certainly where they'll be if we let them go under though right?”

“Together with the present workers and their children?”

““Which is certainly where they'll be if we let them go under though right?”
Y2

socialistic band-aid on top of bloody socialistic band-aid

time to change the dressing & go back to tried & true methods”

“Hey Kookie, lend me your comb.”

““For every 1 GM worker on the line there are 3 that are sitting at home on pension.”
Nigal
9:16:52 AM
11/12/08


A downgrade to the health care system should help take care of that. ;-)”

“Automakers are the biggest buyers of U.S.-manufactured steel, aluminum, iron, copper, plastics, rubber and electronics.

Tens of thousands of suppliers and dealers depend on the automakers. Bankruptcy could push suppliers into bankruptcy as well, hurting other automakers who depend on them for similar parts.

A failure at GM, which represents about half of the U.S. auto industry, could eliminate 2.5 million jobs and $125 billion in personal income in the first year, according to a report published last week by the Center for Automotive Research. In three years, the government's tax loss could total more than $108.1 billion.”

“like someone said above, a failure of one company would just create a void that another one would fill in�it's not like we'd just loose that piece of the market...it might take a while and some areas would be greatly effected but it would happen...maybe there could be a compromise?...maybe the government could let them fail but help ease the immediate effect...the long term effect would take care of itself”

“I like how Y2 makes GM workers sound like poor Joe Lunchbucket who lives pay check to paycheck. The average wage of a GM worker, with benefits, is $100,000.”

“y2, go back to YOUR country and take your socialistic manure with you. You're not welcome here. You're ruining the country, and you smell like warm Haggledance.”

“It's all about socialism...................eh, sarge?

Kooky”

“That is simply not true. You should walk a mile in a person's shoes before you judge them. All the U.S. automakers share some suppliers and a faliure in any one would be catastrophic in many more.
Phil, I realize you used to work for GM, and we talked about that when we met several years ago. Saturn started out making vehicles using the Toyota Production system and now GM has been using it in most if not all of their plants.

The only reason the implanted car companies pay so good is to compete with the domestic car companies.

I try not to read or post on non-backpacking threads, but ya'll are messing with my job here and I won't stand for it!”

“BT%W, I am on my UAW negotiated break, I suggest some of you should get off the internet and go back to work before you lose your jobs!!!”

“Alright, Karo!!

Some of these kooks will take any opportunity to trash organized labor.

And they don't know WTF they are talking about.

I am an inactive Teamster, but still a member.”

“That is simply not true. You should walk a mile in a person's shoes before you judge them.

I wasn't judging them. I'm simply trying to keep things in perspective and realistic. And while I have not walked a mile in their shoes I live in the #2 GM manufacturing town outside of Detroit. I know the workers, I know how much they make and I know what benies they get, what exorbitant signing bonuses they get and above all, I know what happens when the plant shuts down.”

“MarkO, in this case, "yes".

money doesn't grow on trees, and thinking it does, ... get ready for a shocker, ... leads to failed ideas”

“You should walk a mile in a person's shoes before you judge them

that way, when they get pissed you're a mile away and you have their shows

But seriously, some people loose their manners online and forget that we're talking about real lives here, but that doesn't give companies the green light to make bad decissions and get bailed out by the government. I hope the best for your Karo.”

“BT%W, I am on my UAW negotiated break,
karo
9:55:37 AM
11/12/08

you don't need the unions to "negotiate" your breaks...there are state and federal laws that take care of that”

“I just heard about a Canadian compnay that was coming to my town brining 150 jobs. They wanted a new location without the union issue in Canada. When Obama won, they pulled the plug on the new facility here. Thanks Barry.

Before Y2 poo-poos what I've said, it came from someone structuring the deal.”

“Yogi, you are correct. The request is for loans, not a gift.”

“I don't poo poo it at all dayhiker.

In a poor economic environment then this means you can cut your wage and benefit costs to the bone because there's plenty of workers to do the jobs at whatever you're willing to pay. But everyone doing this means that median incomes go down, so they can't afford to buy stuff - so you're essentially cutting your own throat.

But there's a balance here too - an inflexible unoin can act like a lead weight.

Perhaps you could redress this balance through cutting taxes for those near median imcome - but that would be socialism right?

And Nigal - the fact that these are good high-paying jobs is the entire point. That's a huge hole to fill when those paychecks stop.”

“i'll let him speak for himself but i don't think nigal meant "good high paying jobs" by his post...i think he meant "over paid jobs" (ducking for cover from Karo)”

“I think they call that envy - Conservatives accuse the left of exhibing a lot of that ;op”

“envy?...i don't want to be over paid for my job...that's too much pressure to perform ;)”

“But to be serious - there is a balance needed here.

Part of the restructuring will likely have to involve getting wage costs down.”

“And they were once able to pay those wages and make a profit.”

“I lost both my Parts and Service reps this week due to the GM reorganization. They chopped alot of people. I've been with Chevrolet for 23 yrs and have never seen what I'm seeing now.”

“"But there's a balance here too - an inflexible unoin can act like a lead weight."
Y2

I'll go along with that.
(huh, a "unoin"?)”

“Thriftyhiker, you need a lesson in history sir, the UAW and other unions got us those breaks way before the states made it into any kind of labor law. And it is because we and others before us fought for those benefits. Anyone who workd for the big three and makes over 100k a year works 7 days a week and 12 hour days to get that much pay. It is nmot mandatory but voluntary to get our product to market. What kind of jobs does everyone on this post do BTW, cause I know of alot of people in my area that have lost their jobs in IT, computer programming, management, etc. It is everywhere nowadays. If the government can bail out Wall Street, why not the working man??? All our jobs are in jeopardy right now. Remember that I said that the union will fight for our job, well I will fight for my job and you should remember that next time you sign up for a hike!!! Now back to backpacking posts....”

“Any of you guys who think they can decide how much money auto workers make oughta let an auto worker decide how much they should make.

Envy is one of The Seven Deadly Sins.
Perhaps those who envy the U.A.W. worker's earnings are also guilty of Sloth.”

“Karo - it's all part of the attempt to portray those at GM as some sort of fat cats - unworthy of help as they laze around on their bloated union paychecks and benefits while the company goes under.

You see it in the way they talk about the mortgage crisis - all the borrowers' fault.

It's basically a way of ignoring all the systemic failures the conservatives have let happen on their watch.”

“Karo, unions have destroyed the AMERICAN auto industry. Face it.”

“I agree with Y2.”

“Karo, I know, understand and respect the roll unions have played in our country's economic and labor history. Please do not mistake my dislike for them as an insult to you or anyone that is a part of them. I do not deny that we owe many of the things we have today to unions, fair wages, reasonable work hours, and good/safe work conditions. However, there comes a time when the valid fights are exhausted and they start asking for too much. I believe that is were we are today. Also let me clarify that I am talking about labor unions, not trade unions. I don't need any plumbers or electricians mad at me too. ;)”

“"Karo, unions have destroyed the AMERICAN auto industry. Face it."
sarj

That ignores who is actually responsible for managing the companies to include design, marketing, manufacturing, etc.
And it portrays company executives as helpless and hapless pawns at the mercy and whim of a cruel and lazy labor force.

That is emotionally driven and ideological and more of the same beliefs that have scuttled this country's economy.

Like Y2 said.....

"It's basically a way of ignoring all the systemic failures the conservatives have let happen on their watch."
last edited: 11/12/08 9:29:04 AM”

“Poor, poor MarkO. Still talking to trolls like it will make a difference.

8D”

“I think we need labor unions more today than at any time in recent memory. Not being one to throw the baby out with the bathwater, perhaps they (unions) need to change a little. We've seen for quite some time what happens when the fortunes of the work force depend on the largesse of business.”

“Ha ha !!

I hope Gremlin brings the hot wax.
I'll show you!!”

“Every study I have ever seen shows that non-union autoworkers in southern states are more satisfied with their job and personal life than their union brothers. As far as I can tell these non-union US located car companies are not laying off workers. Union organizers repeatedly fail to force these workers into the Unions. If their is a study or article that shows any serious desire by the majority of these workers to become unionized I would like to see it posted here.

It isn't the people posting on these boards that are jeopardizing karo's job. It is the UAW, the rock head US car company managers and the US public that don't want the cars and trucks the big 3 are putting out. I am also curious about karo's statement about fighting for his union and that people here should be careful what trips they decide to go on. I am not quite sure what his message is there.”

“I agree Nimble, there needs to be checks and balances. I compair labor unions to lobbyists. They both have their place but both have gotten way out of control.”

“holy crap, i missed that line

this is obviously a touchy subject...karo, i apologize if i offended you”

“Well Hyway - when you 'yawn' and act like a dick about issues which are having a major effect on people's lives and the future for their families - they tend to respond.

Maybe if you think before posting now and again.”