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Wind Turbines going up on Allegheny Fron t
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“The location is just north of where Route 42 comes down off the plateau about 11 miles north of Bear Rocks.
They will likely be visible from higher points of Bear Rocks, but not egregiously so.
The second phase will come south of Route 42 to a point about three or four miles north of Stack Rocks.
“The Greens get their way with government subsidized alternate energy plans, but at the expense of killing birds, sometimes endangering endangered species, and at the expense of visual pollution. Don't you just love Liberals.”
“Burn mo' oil and coal, huh?”
“No go nuke.....hey Marky Mark they could get the Kennedys to get a compound in the area...the windmills would be stopped dead...”
“The advance studies for this area do not indicate a potential for significant bird kills. The more serious concern would be for bats. Nedpower initially did site studies to avoid significant wildlife issues. It's also Northern West Virginia Flying Squirrel habitat and Cheat Mountain salamander habitat, so siting was particularly critical.
Mountaintop Removal/Valley Fill coal mining is laying waste to wider areas. Nothing can live on what they leave behind, and we are talking many many square miles for that.
This installation was moved north of where he wanted to end, which would have been very close to scenic Bear Rocks. Thanks to the Highland Conservancy and studies we made part of the record, he was moved back a mile north of where we proposed the termination point.”
“Geobeet, you didn't answer the question.............
"Don't you just love Liberals?"
The topic has moved to bashing liberals.”
“Besides Bear Rocks, these will be visible from the divide between Stony River and Red Creek, from Raven Ridge, and from Cabin Mountain north of Raven Ridge.
When the southern phase is developed, those southernmost turbines will loom over the Front. But at least we got some cushion.
The West Virginia Public Service Commission is surprisingly concerned about scenic views and wildlife issues. Recently adopted siting criteria are fairly well spelled out, and the commission solicited and reacted to Conservancy input.
I would rather Route 42 be the closest point, but we don't always get our druthers.”
“Prosecutor and XL going fuego on a non-fuego thread. Where or where is SS to chide them for this horrible travesty?”
“Gitchyer mud shovels and start slingin'.”
Ain't it purty?
“Here is MTR around Kayford Mountain. The wooded ridge in lower middle has been protected by one determined and outspoken man: Larry Gibson.
“Here's another great place to hike:
“That looks like the face of the moon.
Or, if you are invested in the coal industry is looks like money.”
“If you're invested in living there, the water table is long gone. If you're invested downstream of there, you've had several floods and probably your investment was flushed into the Ohio River.”
“I'd much rather see the turbines than a strip mining pit.”
“I can't speak for others, the way Mr. Ed and Dainty Dan like to do, but I can live with the turbines until something better comes along.”
“I like turbines, but it's hard to find the right size for my head.”
All sorts of options.... take your pick”
“I like those little propellers and the skull cap part kinda goes with the jewish side of me:)”
“The turbines I've seen (in Atlantic City) are beautiful. I've not seen them in a wilderness setting but they have to look better than those.”
“Wind turbines are not efficient and competive. they only exist as a glight on the landscape because of government subisidies with YOUR tax dollars.
Something better has come along. Nuclear energy. But no, the liberals don't want it.
More people died in Ted Kennedy's car than at Three Mile Island.”
“But Chernoble is the gift that keeps on giving”
“You're right about that, Rev.
(and more innocent people have been sentenced to death in Cook County than died in Ted Kennedy's car)”
“aw crap ---- I'm feeding the troll again.”
“Well Tilt, shouldn't GeoBeet be petitioning Cook County Government to hire better public defenders instead of championing inefficient power sources that kill migratory birds?”
“"they only exist as a glight on the landscape because of government subisidies with YOUR tax dollars."
Hmmm, sounds an awful lot like the coal and oil industries.
"championing inefficient power sources"
Like nuclear? Which requires so much energy and pollution during mining, construction of the plant (think of all that concrete which is highly polluting during manufacture), and decommissioning? And also needs so much human safeguarding during operation and that many decades-long decommissioning phase? To say nothing of the human safeguarding needed of the waste for generations.
That's it, prosecutor has convinced me, I'm pro-nuclear now. Screw solar and wind turbines.”
“One more note, prosecutor. The Audubon Society publicly supports wind power. Their own studies show that it is barely a hazard to birds. You need to get your facts straight.
“Geobeet, thanks for all the work you guys do on this effort. I would have hated seeing those from Bear Rocks.
Having said that, I am not against wind power, per say. But let's put the monsters somewhere that we have already ruined the landscape. Maybe on top of those mountains that have already been removed. It's very sad.”
“Cars and airplanes have to go because of the birds? Vertical axis windmills are far easier on the birds.”
“has anyone thrown frozen turkeys into a windmill to test their mechanical ability to survie? I hear that happens with jet engines all the time.
Then of course there is always the crewman who went for a ride through a jet engine and lived to tell about it. My air Force son says he has seen the helmet the guy was wearing.
last edited: 9/21/07 8:13:02 AM”
“Our county is quickly being studied for wind turbines. This southeastern (western part of it, from Austin to Spring Valley to Harmony, MN) part looks to be an area that will be highly developed. Don't worry, should not be visible from the highly scenic Root River valley. Would be a bit closer to the Upper Iowa valley around the Iowa/MN border. But of course, those valleys don't get good winds.
Pretty interesting. The county is developing an ordinance for siting the towers. Currently there are regs - I believe it's if 5 MW or more come from a site - it comes under state regulations. Just last night I was at a planning commission meeting. It sounds like an option may be put out there to let counties regulate them up to 25 MW, IF the county wants to put stricter regulations in place.
We have towers now around Grand Meadow and LeRoy, which are just which of our county's borders.
A big concern that's been stated (speaking of frozen turkeys, lol) is ice chunks being thrown from those huge blades. It does give one pause.....”
“There are several wind turbines up on the Clinch/Cumberland range north of Oak Ridge.
The "visible pollution" is negligible. The bird kill is not significant.
However, the coal plant over in Kingston continues to spew out pollution at a rate that just smothers everything in the valley on still days.”
““I'd much rather see the turbines than a strip mining pit.”
Just a minor technical point. The pictures Geo posted are strip mines, most commonly seen in Eastern Kentucky where I grew up, and W.Va. It's also called mountain top removal, for obvious reasons. While it brings certain advantages such as lower cost to mining companies, and flat land where there didn't used to be any, the potential for environmental disaster, along with the horrible eyesore, outweigh the advantages, in my opinion. You can take 500-1000 feet off the top of a mountain, but you can't put it back on. Several years ago there was a push to strip mine Black Mountain, the tallest mountain in Kentucky. Fortunately a grass roots effort stopped it before any damage was done.
Pit mining, or open pit mining, is a slightly different method. It basically involves digging a big hole in the ground (hence the "pit"), as opposed to chopping off the top of a mountain, and is more common out west. Both are considered surface mining, but they are two different techniques.
I side with the "liberals" when it comes to strip mining. I'd rather look at some giant propellers than see mountains cut down. Traditional deep mines can pose environmental risks as well as risk of injury or death, but I much prefer that to the strip mining that has become popular where I grew up.
I see no problem with nuclear energy as an alternative. It's misleading to compare the Chernobyl facility or Soviet quality control with what takes place in the U.S.
last edited: 10/01/07 1:33:24 PM”
“Nothing is going to replace coal mining. If wind were to be developed to its fullest potential it would still be a mere drop in the bucket percentile-wise. And if it were to cut into domestic coal supply to any significant extent, the coal would just be exported overseas.
Nuclear is becoming more and more attractive as time goes by. There's no contest with coal fatalities.
If they were to install wind turbines on old MTR lands, there would be no threat to wildlife because the wildlife is gone. And it could hardly pose more of an eyesore than what MTR leaves behind. Last, it would make that land at least marginally productive again.”
“t's misleading to compare the Chernobyl facility or Soviet quality control with what takes place in the U.S.
last edited: 10/01/07 4:33:24 PM”
With all due respect, and I mean that seriously, my deep concern can be summed up with the phrase "famous last words." With the amount of our domestic infrastructure management being leased to overseas concerns, it may be only a matter of time before the Chernobyl nightmare comes home to roost. I pray that does not happen, but I most certainly see the possibility existing.”
When much of the world spurned nuclear power, 30 years ago, the French, being French, decided to go their own way and embrace it. Paris, the "City of Light," is lit by nuclear energy, which powers just about everything else in France: its homes, its factories, even its high speed railroads.
Nearly 80 percent of the country's electricity comes from 58 nuclear power plants, crammed into a country the size of Texas. Pierre Gadonniex, the head "Electricite de France," the country’s national utility says it all began with a French obsession for energy independence.
"In France, we have nearly no coal. We have no oil. So clearly, nuclear appeared to be the best way," Gadonniex explains. "And 30 years later, it appears to be a very smart decision."
Because nuclear plants emit no greenhouse gases, France has the cleanest air in the industrialized world, and because the price of oil is now around $60 a barrel, it has the lowest electric bills in Europe. In fact, France has so much cheap electricity, it exports it to its European neighbors. French nuclear plants supply power to parts of Germany, Italy and help light the city of London.
"It is a very competitive way of producing electricity when oil prices are beyond, I would say, around $40 a barrel," Gadonniex tells Kroft.”
“Last, it would make that land at least marginally productive again.”
Yeah that's a plus. Not to defend strip mining (I already said I was against it), but it does provide some use when the mined land is reclaimed. Flat land is a scarce commodity in East Kentucky, so some use can be made of old strip mines. That being said, the infrastructure is inadequate to support very much industry that would need that flat land for factories etc.
And for the longest time, gubernatorial candidates have promised to bring industry and jobs to East Ky. to take advantage of the flat land, but it never happens, partly due to the lack of infrastructure I mentioned--poor roads, lack of water supply, etc.
So again, the pros are far outweighed by the cons in my book. Elk were reintroduced into that area of Kentucky about 10 years ago and are thriving, so at least they aren't negatively affected by the strip mines.”
“StickmanWalking, I haven't seen you on here in years, where ya been hidin?”
“I'm around. I stay mostly in the fuego and sports threads because I never met an argument in which I couldn't take a side.
My new position at work keeps me on call seven days a week, so I don't get as many trips in these days. On the other hand, I get paid to try out all the cold weather gear and wet weather gear that I have. Work even buys most of it for me.
I'm slowly teaching these guys I work with that TNF and Columbia (gag) are not the only brands of outdoor clothing anymore. I've converted a few to Patagonia, and almost had one talked into backpacking, but he veered off into kayaks instead.”
“We saw wind turbines going up on the Allegheny Front in Cambria County, PA, over the weekend, by PA Route 164 east of Portage. A few were turning, still had a sign "Energy Development Area Keep Out" by a construction entrance from 164. The two four-year-olds in the car were utterly fascinated and kept craning their heads around every bend to see if they could still see them.”
“There was a very bad radiological release from a nuclear research facility in the SW US in the 50's. I can't recall the name of the location or the amounts, but a recent Modern Marvels episode covered it, and it was far larger than Three Mile was.
Just pointing out that Three Mile and Chernobyl aren't the only major accidents to discuss.”
“There are no studies supported by the scientific community that show any member of the public was injured by the Three Mile Island accident.”
“Nor is there any agreement that Agent Orange has caused any abnormalities from it's use in Nam. Course you can't buy it retail but it was harmless to our service people in Nam. Or at least that was true for many many years. Perhaps the numbers affected by it has been reduced through attrition to the point where it is considered manageable now.
The point is "follow the money". The scientific community is dependent upon government and private industry for its money. You play ball or you go without money. Take your pick. I have a brother in the scientific community. This is from his own mouth.
last edited: 10/04/07 5:03:58 PM”
“there are plenty of people in the scientific community talking about agent orange.
3 mile island was not a medical catastrophe people paint it to be. In reality it showed that a nuclear meltdown in a properly constructed facility can contain if not entirely all of the contamination, then most harmful radioactive material doesn't escape.
It is an accepted fact by most informed people that 3 mile island was not the catastrophe it was painted to be. Most people mistook what happened in the movie, The China Syndrome, which was released 2 weeks prior to the accident and would never come to grips with the true facts ... that no one was injured by it.”
“there are plenty of people in the scientific community talking about agent orange
That may be true now and I acknowledge that. But ask a vet newly returned who tried to get coverage. In short... it is a mistake to take industry press, or media reliant on the industry, without following the money
BTW... how close do you live to a nuclear power plant?
last edited: 10/04/07 7:56:44 PM”
“Also how far do you live from a transportation route used to transport the waste materials from the plants to their storage facilities. Gives a whole new insight to the safety of nuclear power plants when you are briefed on the evacuation and damage control measures in case of an accident. Try it sometime.”
“The stuck valve that got the whole event rolling was notoriously unreliable but cheap. If they hadn't tried to shave a few bucks at the expense of safety, it would have never happened.”
“actually, the big problem was that they didn't have a simple water gage in the reactor and was depending on something else to tell them what the water level was. The stuck valve wouldn't have been as big an issue if they had known the true nature of their problem from the beginning. Also it wasn't the stuck valve that was the real problem it was the indicator on the control board that didn't show it was stuck, a design flaw, that was the problem.
But all these things underline my point. Even with stuck valve, a design flaw that allowed an indicator to show a valve as still open, a loss of coolant water that caused a collapse of the pile and the subsequent venting of some material to the atmoshere, NO ONE was injured by it. We have industrial accidents in the coal industry that kill more people in one event than has been killed in all nuclear plant accidents.”
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