Can you oppose the war and support the T roops

“Threatening people on the internet while hiding.”

“I'm still walking around happily "undiscussed".”

“Or is upholding his threats also something he's not prepared to accept personal responsibility for?”

“Perhaps telling me I'm not an American was supposed to shock me into silence?

I take full and total personal responsibility for not being an American.”

“Commie.”

“Y2 - The person insulted my wife. If you want me to lay down to that, I have no interest in taking your advise.”

“You stand up for your views to such an extent that you hide on an internet chat forum? - y2

I say my same views in person that I do on here. What are you trying to say?”

““Y2 - The person insulted my wife. If you want me to lay down to that, I have no interest in taking your advise.”
moonglo
11:16:17 AM
10/12/06

Like I said: You're a riot.

Come and get me, biznatch! You said you "know where I live". Was that another lie?”

“How the hell can he insult your wife - he doesn't know who you are and so has never met your wife?”

““How the hell can he insult your wife - he doesn't know who you are and so has never met your wife?”

So nobody can insult somebody they don't know? Are you sticking with that?”

“And Phaed is a master of combat with the hammer and sickle.”

““And Phaed is a master of combat with the hammer and sickle.”
Y2
11:19:09 AM

I prefer the hatchet and baseball bat.”

“And stop blaming the supposed wife insult.

1) Nobody knows if you're even married.
2) He was pointing out your failure to see the point - he's never met your 'wife' or knows anything about her except perhaps that she may or may not be married to you.
3) You're just upset because he made you look dumb, not because of some sort of slight on your 'wife'.
last edited: 10/12/06 1:31:03 PM”

“I didn't make him look dumb. He did that all by himself.

I just stood around and enjoyed the show.”

“y2

A) Maybe you don't, but you don't know everything. Most people who have read my posts know my maritial status.

B) I don't care what his excuse was to insult my wife.

C) You don't have a reliable ability to know what I'm thinking.”

“Someone needs a wife , I've got one
I'll send you.”

“A) Maybe you don't, but you don't know everything. Most people who have read my posts know my maritial status.”
moonglo
11:31:26 AM
10/12/06

No, we know what you've SAID about your marital status. I'm pretty well convinced that you're a liar, though, so that brings everything you say into question.”

“Saleboard - I think you've just insulted your wife - I think it's time you paid yourself a visit and had a discussion. Do you know where you live ;o)”

“Once you've pretended you're dead, pretending you're married is no biggie.”

“Can you pretend both at the same time?”

“y2 - There are people on this board who have seen a picture of me and my wife. To those people, and to me, your inability to grasp reality is shining through. But, keep talking.”

“Sorry I didn't mean 'Wife' , I meant 'Life', you all need one of them.”

“Well grow a pair and share these details with the rest of us then.”

“I had a picture in here, but took it out because I didn't think Sarge would get it.
last edited: 10/12/06 1:45:43 PM”

“y2 - How is sharing my personal details with everybody on the internet indicative of my growing a pair? You're out in left field bud.
last edited: 10/12/06 1:46:46 PM”

“I did a google search for "me and my wife".

Here we are:

”

“Oh wait, here we are again:

”

“Hey marko...remember when that picture came out on Saturday Night Live (LOL) it was WAY after the war but Chevy Chase opens with, "The US Government issued a new Asian Flu Shot....then showed the photo.

I agree that the pretty much ever war after WWII has been run screwy. I ran into similar stuff a few years ago. Following 9/11 the fire service went through soul searching following the loss of 300 firefighters who had all entered the buildings knowing the buildings would fall.

We were on a scene one night and the Incident commander was looking at his watch. At 15 minutes he ordered the interior crew out. I asked him why, he explained that the average firefighter burned up their 30 minute (2219psi) airpack in around 15 minutes.

I looked at him and said, "All these guys are certified right?" He answered to the affirmative. "And all these guys have a few fires under their belts (they were all pretty much veterans of this business)?"
He answered yes.

I asked one final question, "Don't you think they are smart enough to know when they are low on air? Why are we micromanaging the fire in such a manner?"

The Incident commander was incensed he was trying to PROTECT THEM...

Long and short we both ended up in the Big Chief's office. The Chief heard both sides of the issue....he agreed that we don't need to micromanage the crews. Plus he noted this chief had burned down more than his share of buildings from poor tactics.

YOU know WAR is a horrible business, everyone in it knows it. I think when we start a war we need to let the military lay out the challenges etc. (remember we were going to lose 25,000 in the first days of this war) If the leaders say go they need to get the heck out of the way, unless they want to go there and do the job.”

“Did I insult you by telling you to read some history, moon?

That's hardly a mild rebuke let alone an insult.

Your grasping, pal.


Y2, you foreign bastard.
Let's have a beer some time.

And Phaedrus, cauliflower'n'ya dipschit!
There isn't enough contempt in this world for people with the audacity to live in such a weird place!”

“I am foreign
I am a bastard
I drink beer
It's all sounding good to me.”

“XL, when the government gets out of control and starts a war without good cause it is the duty of people of good conscience to stop it.

35-40 years ago people had more excuses than you could shake a stick at for continuing.
"Well, it may be wrong but we should win it anyway."
That's insane.............criminally insane.

Colonialism had to end.
As Jack Kennedy said the way to stop communism is to actually help the natives develop democracy not fight to prevent it.

Give those people a better deal than communism offers.
But the commercial interests usually win out. They insist on keeping those little "coolies" tapping rubber trees or picking coffee or what ever..........money and influence on government followed by military disaster followed by blaming the very people who din't want war in the first place.”

“Y2...having had good British Ale....if you are drinking BEER in this country you are not drinking beer per se. ....(LOL)”

“MarkO - recognizing patronizing behavior somehow escapes you? Oh, I know, you didn't mean it that way .... lol”

“MarkO you are saying this is another Colonial Action? Okay lets just look at the COLONIES of the United States.

Philippeans - they are free and sinking like a stone.
Korea -....um world power?
Japan _Ditto
Guam - wouldn't leave if they could
Puerto Rico - Ditto


Yep we have really screwed the countries we have taken over. Hmm let see...we install water, electrical, set up medical facilities...Then we leave them independent and free, if they can keep it.

Sorry but I lived throught the EVIL AMERICAN crap before, never believed it. I remember seeing our people do too much good.”

“some people were sitting around in their basement hitting the bong talking about how much the man brings him down to have seen those things, XL”

“You're changing the subject.
Vietnam was a disaster, but they are independent. Shoulda let 'em be in '45.
The French shoulda let 'em be in 1862......bastards!


MarkO you are saying this is another Colonial Action? Okay lets just look at the COLONIES of the United States.

What is this question in reference to?
Those aren't exactly colonies, whatever.

Philippeans - they are free and sinking like a stone.
Let 'em.
Korea -....um world power?
They are big boys now.....bring home the U.S. military and spend those billions fixing American infrastructure, ie, schools, etc.

Japan _Ditto
Ditto.

Guam - wouldn't leave if they could
What is it, a weather station?
My father-in-law served there in the '50s with the weather service.
Puerto Rico - Ditto
Sure, I have nothing to say about Puerto Rico.

XL, did your head explode when you read about me shaking hands with Colonel Loan?
If so, take two and call me in the morning.”

“Vietnam is independent...LOL...so a family member being assaulted by another family member is okay???? Where do you get off on that. Heck Nazi Germany was Independent...well unless you were a jew or other untermensch (you can you know who about that)....Heck by your determination POL POT was a strict ruler....LOL

So other than saying Vietnam is going great becuase they are independent (LOL)...you have nothing substantive to offer about colonys of American that were damamged????HMMM????”

“"...so a family member being assaulted by another family member is okay????"

If that's how you feel, get professional help.

I never said that things were peachy there, but they are running their own country and our kids are no longer dying there.

WTF does POL POT have to do with anything.
He is dead now.
The Viets knocked him out of power in '77 or '79 anyway.”

“MarkO when do we need to get involved? When it is a token force that can be stopped by a few thousand or when they are threatenting the very shores of the nation and the sacrifice will be in the millions?

Do we turn a blind eye to tens of thousands of humanity overloading boats to escape and becoming victims of pirates or exposure off the coast, just trying to escape?

Are you saying that regardless of the actions of a government it is an inside problem? So you approve of the way the UN responded to the Slaughters in Africa in the past two or three decades? I mean the thought of foreign powers training scum to torture, rape and overthrow countries to install horrifying dictatorships is okay...becuase they don't directly threaten us?

I have a neighbor like you. He thinks we are insane to respond to fires off duty, says if we aren't getting paid its not our problem. I guess that egocentric dehumanized look at yoru fellow man is good for you (do you break out the hand lotion when the starving kids come on the TV?)but I feel there is a time where someone has to do something.”

““How dare I point out the hypocracy of a man lecturing others on personal responsibility when he won't even take responsibility for his own views."

This is one of your lamer trolls Y2. Not standing up for what he types because he has a handle? Hello? Y2! Is that your birth name?

But why should you keep it on the subject of personal responsibility? I mean, you hate freedom, why should you want to stand up and be personally responsible?”

“Here's my biggest problem with the war...

Rumsfeld, and by extension Bush, came into office with this grand plan to decrease our numbers of active troops and create a high tech, asymmetric "shock and awe" type army.

So, that's what they did.

But a cold reality of our new world is that boots on the ground are as important as ever.

So, now we have a smaller, leaner army that isn't capable of meeting all of the challenges we face.

A few years ago, North Korea probably wouldn't have detonated that bomb because we had a credible threat of force in operation.

Now Bush comes on TV to tell the world that he has ruled out military force.

What we really need is an increased military budget and increased troop salaries and more active duty troops. And, I think the biggest obstacle to that is money.

BTW, I think that will be true whether we pull out of Iraq or not.

Also, we should follow through on our policies. Our previous policy of sanctions and weapons inspections did actually deter Saddam from developing weapons of mass destruction.

The lesson of the War in Iraq is that there is no incentive to comply with international standards vis a vis weapons of mass destruction.

And by the extension, the lesson is to get the nukes as quickly as possible, because it's the only way to deter the United States.”

“The old Mouse that Roared tactic....I think the fact that we never showed our Shock and Awe tactic really hampered us in the Moslem world.

I hate the thought of destroying a city but the many in the third world only understand force.
On a hike I will tell you the experience one of my Classmates (Fleet Marine Officer)had in West Africa in the 1990's)

RL...the inspections were hampered at every turn, inspectors were prohibited from checking certain places, they were stopped from assigned sites. This was the reason for the UN resolutions that approved the military action.

When I get a Criminal Search Warrant imagine how it would be if I was told...you can examine everthing by the Back bedroom. Or worse yet, I get there and the suspect says..."not today give me a day and you can come back."
last edited: 10/12/06 9:46:39 PM”

“wow RL - i think you're way off saying we don't have enough troops

we have plenty - it's just a matter of balancing/deciding (a) how much collateral damage do we want to do, and (b) how much hand-holding do we want to do - but our hands are not tied b/c of troop levels, it's a choice we make”

“Apparently my position on the war has led some to misunderstand my reasoning. This has resulted in some of the people I truly like to feel I was discounting their personal views.

As a matter of perspective. I grew up in the 1960's and 1970's. One of the most influential people in my life was a Second Uncle who served as my ROTC Director in High School.
Col. Joe was one of the neatest most understanding men I ever had the distinct priviledge to know. He was a decorated veteran of the European Campaign in World War II. He had landed at Omaha where he lost a good percentage of his men taking the beach. He fought the bloody hedgerow battles across France and ended up in the Ardennes (scene of the Battle of The Bulge). he was in one of the initial units to find the Nordhausen V-2 missile site so he saw first hand the true horror of the Nazi system. His awards (not the John Kerry "OOH I slammed my finger in the door that means a silver star!" ) were multiple. Yet he remained a kind understanding father figure to me. He distincly despised war. He had participated, somewhat unwillingly in the Second World War and had risen from Lieutenant to Major due primarily to the losses of his officers in combat. He had retired as a Colonel and spent a number of years as an ROTC instructor, not preaching WAR but teaching the necessity of discipline, responsibility and love of country.

In 1974 at my highschool the WANNABE protest were still high in "Vogue" these were kids who did not have the slightest idea of what had happened in South East Asia for the past decade or so, they just thought the image portrayed by the PROTESTERS was glamorous. We were at a High School football game one night when a long haired "wanna be" walked up to Joe and gave the Nazi salute and said ZIEG HEIL! then asked him, "How does it feel to be a baby killer?" He then turned and walked away laughing with his buddies. I had never seen Colonel Joe cry, but I watched him walk into a dark out of the way spot and cry. That little maggot infested piece of trash never knew that becuase Joe, who had spent some long years suffering in the cold and misery of the Second World War, and men like him he, the brat could give that salute and make that statement. Joe explained later that the kid was not intentionally being an ass and he forgave him. Rather he was hooked onto the failed "AURA" of the protest movement. Joe understood, as I would learn, that most of the "people" in the movement are sadly myrmidons, parroting the words of a small group of leaders. These leaders seek, not to end violence (by the very actions they take in pushing their cause) but a breakdown in the system we have. For the most part the leadership of the movement are seen in every anti-Capitalist movement in the world. Check the lists the same maggot infested types are seen in the anti war movement, the global warming movement, the free money marches etc etc ad infinitum. They are Socialist in direction since they truly believe (as did so many useful idiots who worked for the North Vietnamese in Vietnam) that they will get their wealth when the take over happens. They seek to get successful not from hard work and continued persistence, but from the government TAKING it from the people who have it. They think it is easier to bring everyone down to a shared misery than to raise up the people on the bottom. I saw this in East Germany, and a number of Communist Countries I visited in my college years.

Flash forward to a few years ago. My Department was operating in an area we had just been granted by the County. We had a huge house that had been remodeled (sans inspection, sans bluelines) so many times we were fighting stubborn fires in "voids in the walls and roofs". I had been through 3 bottles (roughly 20 to 30 minutes for me per bottle) and I had had the fire roll over me twice when it broke out from hidden spots (I would get my gear replaced due to contact fire damage).
I was laying on the front yard when I noticed screaming, hysterical screaming from this woman as a response to every action my crews took.
"They are destroying my house," she screamed repeatedly to the reporter standing there. After a long hot fight we put the fire out. The cause was traced to a jack-leg electrical installation by her "gentleman friend". She went way overboard to describe how we destroyed this and flooded that. Then when the camera left she turned 180 degrees and began praising us.
Turns out that her "gentleman friend" had been a volunteer with the department whose area we had absorbed. He was not taken on our department because, A. He had no diploma and refused to get even a GED. B. He had three prior FELONY convictions for things we won't go into.

Her screaming was not an actual fear of damage but rather she wanted to make a scene to get her 15 minutes of fame.

To sum up, most of the people who I talk to who TRULY dislike the war for the violence I understand. But I find a VAST majority of the protesters want one of three things
1. To ressurect the GLORY DAYS of the 60's.
2. To get their 15 minutes of fame.
3. They refuse to accept the results of every election since 1994.

I am sorry but when most of the substantial debates I have had with people regarding the war come back to the trite. BUSH LIED, BUSH did this or that. It is not about the war, it is politics.

If you have ever had to sit with a wife/girfriend/parent of a soldier who has died, and see the pain on their face when it is continually reported how EVIL their lost loved one was, or how STUPID they were for going you would understand.

To Crash and others I may have insulted understand, I have walked many miles in these moccasins, please try a few miles before you classify me as an evil killer. I have almost died three or four times in my job. One time it was searching an abandonded building for an urban outdoorsman who was reportedly there. I do not take my life, my freedom or my responsibility lightly.

I hope this explains to everyone who had the respect for me to read this rant.”

““We were at a High School football game one night when a long haired "wanna be" walked up to Joe and gave the Nazi salute and said ZIEG HEIL! then asked him, "How does it feel to be a baby killer?" He then turned and walked away laughing with his buddies.”

G-d help the ass hole who ever did such a thing in my presence. I love free speech and I support it to the end but I would have stomped his guts out and gladly taken my punishment for being in the wrong.”

“Nigal, the discipline Colonel Joe taught us made us stop. He tried to teach me that words aren't what hurt you, it is how you take them.”

“Sorry xl, But if you do a search you will find that I have never supported a war in Iraq. Morality aside we never had any real evidence that Iraq was any threat to us.

Having said that I dont support the war I want you to know I very much support our troops. The US military is a victim of a bad administrations policys and they have no choice in execution of thier orders. Now that we have placed them in harms way, they must be supported so that they can eventually return home safely.”

“Lumber thank you for that, but I find it someone disingenuous that up until Bush sent in the troops to enforce the UN Resolutions everyone from Hillary, to Bill, to John Kerry to put near everyone in the (now) opposition is ON RECORD as saying he was a great threat.”

“we never had any real evidence that Iraq was any threat to us

seriously? no threat? i guess that depends on how you define "real" and how you define "threat" and how you define "us".”