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NSA building database of all US phone re cords
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“WMD's weren't in Iraq after 9/11, but you keep saying they were. It's OK, Art Bell believes you.”
“If Buddha Bear doesn't get confirmation from Michael Moore or Stephenopologis, he doesn't believe it.”
“show me confirmation! right now dumb-arse!”
“show me the nsa database right now dumb ass”
“Hyway - yeah, some banks do that as well. I'm pretty sure my bank refunds the charges other banks have made.
BB - Sarge just knows... only he can't say any more than that. Apparently his security clearance allows him to say they are there, but not to substantiate that in any way, shape, or form.”
“Oh and despite the fact that producing this information would clear the administration of telling whoppers in the lead up to the war - they also aren't saying.
last edited: 5/12/06 9:30:01 PM”
“I actually felt sorry for you y2, reading that sarcasm. You have no clue. You're embarassing yourself.”
“I wonder if we could rat-#&%!$ the NSA by talking about bullschit terrorist plots and NEW-KLEAR weapons every time we called Mom to say hi.........and stuff like that.”
“MarkO's Mom must be a terrorist if the NSA is going to go beyond just logging the numers she calls or calls her.”
“OK Sarge, and Vietnam is still a threat to the U.S. like it was 40 years ago.”
“i'll assume that's the alcohol talking”
“Sarge you are in rare form on this thread. You’re slippery as an eel. I disagree with you on this issue but I do like watchin’ ya work. :)”
“DnB - Maybe you can answer my question to y2 since you probably have answers instead of a barrage of personal insults like him.
To protect the country, how can the government monitor JUST the non-threatening citizens? Should we only look outside our borders for people attacking us?”
““To protect the country, how can the government monitor JUST the non-threatening citizens? Should we only look outside our borders for people attacking us?”
Someone must exhibit evidence that they are a threat in the first place before we can know who should be monitored. How? First thing first, track and monitor all non citizens. Sorry Haji but if you aren’t a US citizen then you do not have the same rights as an American. You are subject to tracking and monitoring. Once you become a citizen then you can have all the rights and protections of the constitution. As for actual citizens if they are convicted of a crime or are reported to have committed a crime then they can be investigated. And no US citizen should have their rights violated without a court order with due process. There is no time that the federal government can suspend our individual rights. This is what keeps us free. When it comes to our rights we can give NO GROUND.
I would gladly suffer another 9/11 on free soil than to live safe in a country where I only have symbolic rights.”
“I think we're disagreeing on what our "rights" are. The police monitor speeders and pick out the ones speeding. They don't take down personal info (although if they wanted to, they could cross reference plates and find out plenty about you as you drive by). The same thing is happening here. The NSA has a "speed-gun" set up on the phone lines. They track who has a pattern of calling the bad guys. Only then do they pull them over. They theoretically could abuse their power just as well as the police could on the highway, or on the streets. It's par for the course. I'd love to see a solution to this, but until a reasonable one comes around that still allows a reasonable amount of ability to catch the bad guys, it's what we've got.
The big problem with your solution is that we'd only be monitoring the legal people. It's the millions of undocumented people I'm (mostly, not entirely) worrying about. That's what the speed gun is for on the information superhighway (telecommunications network).
last edited: 5/13/06 8:07:06 AM”
“To protect the country, how can the government monitor JUST the non-threatening citizens? Should we only look outside our borders for people attacking us? gotta be sure that many dictatorships use the same argument.”
“y2 - Come back to me when you have a reasonable solution that doesn't involve allowing chaos.”
“Your example of speeders is a good one Sarge but driving is something we do in public, effects the public and is a matter of public safety. This is a matter of right to privacy as we are not making phone calls publicly. If watching to see who I call is OK, is it then not OK for someone to follow me to my friend’s house to see whom I’m visiting too? Where does it end? Where are the lines? I would much prefer to build a fence around our rights than to give a little. But I do see where you are coming from and it does give pause for thought.
“The big problem with your solution is that we'd only be monitoring the legal people.”
Oh this was just off the top of my head. The devil’s in the details. I still maintain that we need to present reason for monitoring in the first place. A fishing net can only be so fine or else it catches everything and not just what fish you are after.”
“I actually agree with Nigal - I can also see this is not a a black and white issue. The most secure society would be the one with fewest freedoms. I think a line has to be drawn somewhere. I certainly don't think this should be done in secret. I doubt any terrorist or network operating in America is likely to be working under the assumption that their calls ar not being monitored.
The question has to be with all these details leaking out, what else is being done that compromises freedoms in the name of security.”
“Another security issue that nobody is talking about is the fact that millions of people overstay their visa and they don't have a good system in place to track them. That's how the 911 terrorists got away with what they did. More needs to be done in this area. UPS can track packages, but the government needs to get on the ball with this.
last edited: 5/13/06 9:01:34 AM”
“ the 911 terrorists got away with what they did. More needs to be done in this area. UPS can track packages, but the government needs to get on the ball with this.
last edited: 5/13/06 10:01:34 AM”
SubQ ID microchips.
I'm outta here!”
“This NSA thing ,is in my opinion not a big deal , but letting it take the energy from more important issues is exactly what politicians want. Too much is resting on immigration and many other issues that this government is totally unable to handle. In truth, the whole system has become so corrupt that this government can not solve any problems that confront you, the american citizen.”
“This is a matter of right to privacy as we are not making phone calls publicly. If watching to see who I call is OK, is it then not OK for someone to follow me to my friend’s house to see whom I’m visiting too?
Duuuuudes, you guys are personalizing this WAY too much. The NSA doesn't give a rat's patooty who YOU are. They aren't tracking YOU. They are looking at phone company records and seeing destination/origination phone calls and looking for patterns. They aren't saying, "okay, let's see, who should we check out this week? How about that Y2 feller, let's just see who he calls for a couple weeks or so and then move on." That's not how this works. They're looking at destinations and origins of phone calls, then they might actually notice the phone number if they see a trend, and then perhaps investigate WHO is behind the calls if justified. They aren't looking at your and mine personal phone records, sheesh! Such paranoia! Don't think yourselves so important!”
“My post was directed at Sarge Buck. Not you.”
“Hi DND! I wasn't even reading who was saying what, I just responded to what seemed to be a "theme" of how many of you are taking this thing. My post was directed at a general point, and not at you.”
“My finger is pointed at all of you. Back in a few hours from a secret mission to catch up on my favorite trailtalk threads... (I hope to high-heaven the government didn't just read that.)”
““Uh, Buddha Bear. WMDs were in Iraq bud. Keep saying they weren't.”
I guess they sort of disappeared into thin air.
Hell, there is more credible evidence that WMD's might be in Iran. Should we kick their ass too?”
“I think big brother may have messed up my computer too. I was trying to watch the dig vid of my daughter being an acrobat (her word) and it didnt work. Turns out I didnt have quicktime player, and to think I was ready to start building my bunker, at least I can take off my foil cap.”
“I just hope big brother doesn't stop the porn streams.”
“is a porn stream like a river of porn? In all my years of hiking I have searched for this elusive river. I have heard legends of it from my elders, but this river I fear is only myth....”
“I'm getting the message that many of you think illies have more freedom than citizens.
When all you have (a jacket and pocket full of quaters) can be liquidated and you can disapears in minutes-you have more freedom than those with material and paper stream baggage so great years would be needed to hide.”
““I'm getting the message that many of you think illies have more freedom than citizens.
When all you have (a jacket and pocket full of quaters) can be liquidated and you can disapears in minutes-you have more freedom than those with material and paper stream baggage so great years would be needed to hide.”
"English motherphucker! Do you speak it?!"”
“What time was that 'Judge Judy show' with BB and Sarge?”
“They aren't saying, "okay, let's see, who should we check out this week? - what do you think they do with the information. You don't put protections in against this stuff, then give it a few months or years, then 'subversive groups and indiciduals' are the next target. ACLU challenging the government, Sierra Club members anti-drilling, which this administration thinks is a vital national interest - anti-war potest organizers. Right wing militias have bombed America before.
You can't put this system in place and not have it pulling in other stuff too. You think, say calls from an anti-war group, (staging regular protests), to it's non-profit HQ on Capitol Hill are not going to crop up on the computer screens out on the BW parkway. Especially if they plan a protest outside the whitehouse. It's to stop any potential terror threat right?
Privacy rights need to be protected, if you don't you're setting the stage for problems in the future. Anything that get in the way of a particular admin can be seen as subversive to America's interest.
This system is going to throw up so much info that I just don't see being thrown away or ignored - especially since there seems to be no oversight whatsoever. You wanna do this then pass the laws to do it or go to court to get the permission to target individuals.
last edited: 5/13/06 12:01:07 PM”
“Y2, these are just mass phone records, dude. They are phone company records. They don't care about individual people, they just care to see if such-and-such a phone number is connecting to such-and-such a place, it might trigger more research. They aren't listening in to your or mine's boring phone calls. There aren't 365 meeeellion NSA agents assigned to each individual U.S. citizen, sheesh! Paranoia el maximo-a!
Also, are we not talking about the CIA and the NSA? Which are government organizations regardless of which political party is in power? Do you think the CIA and NSA are full of Bushies? And what, when Clinton was in office, were they all Clintonites, each employee hand pointed by each Prez after massive background checks? And when the next party is in power, all the previous employees are fired and re-hired by the party in power? Sheesh! Such paranoia. Are you this paranoid about the Social Security Administration, which knows more about you than you think? Are you okay with the private phone companies knowing this much about you, who you call and such? How about the Dept. of Motor Vehicles? Do you like them knowing all they do about you? Scary stuff? How about your credit card companies knowing every purchase you make? Ever get one of those phone calls from your credit card company asking about a couple purchases because they might suspect someone else is using your card... fraud detection? It's because your credit card companies (or ATM if you use those) track your purchases and see trends, and if there are unusual purchases on your card, they will flag it and call you. It's supposed to be for your protection and theirs. If you're making regulars gas purchases in Sacramento, and there are also regular gas purchases that just popped up in Tulsa, they might think... hmmmm... how can he be buying gas in both places so quickly? I work for a gov't agency myself, in a subsidized program. Do you realize how much info we have on the public? We have wage earnings (which we continually verify), SS#'s, driver's licenses, financial info, each child's name, copies of phone bills, utilities, ways to track their expenses, incomes, spending, etc. Guess what? It's just guys like me and you who work where I do. We surf the internet just the same, we get mad at bosses, we often quit, we hire temps with access to this same info, etc. Sorta scary. So much info, so much trust. But we have to track welfare fraud, and if we suspect stuff, we investigate. The NSA is doing this on a larger scale... it's not just an organization they're trying to protect, it's the United States. Checking phone company records from Pac Bell and AT&T, which the phone companies already do, to find abnormalities and possible dangerous trends is not "spying on Buck and Y2 from Trail Talk".”
A former intelligence officer for the National Security Agency said Thursday he plans to tell Senate staffers next week that unlawful activity occurred at the agency under the supervision of Gen. Michael Hayden beyond what has been publicly reported, while hinting that it might have involved the illegal use of space-based satellites and systems to spy on U.S. citizens. …
[Tice] said he plans to tell the committee staffers the NSA conducted illegal and unconstitutional surveillance of U.S. citizens while he was there with the knowledge of Hayden. … “I think the people I talk to next week are going to be shocked when I tell them what I have to tell them. It’s pretty hard to believe,” Tice said. “I hope that they’ll clean up the abuses and have some oversight into these programs, which doesn’t exist right now.” …
Tice said his information is different from the Terrorist Surveillance Program that Bush acknowledged in December and from news accounts this week that the NSA has been secretly collecting phone call records of millions of Americans. “It’s an angle that you haven’t heard about yet,” he said. … He would not discuss with a reporter the details of his allegations, saying doing so would compromise classified information and put him at risk of going to jail. He said he “will not confirm or deny” if his allegations involve the illegal use of space systems and satellites.”
“Buck - I think creating the structures of a police state is completely unacceptble. I can't believe those who claim to in favor of freedom can support this in any way.
And Buck - The phone system is computerized to check for patterns. Calls going from one area to another, an increased number of calls going to certain areas. An number which got hardly any calls suddenly being flooded with calls.
And yes, I also really worry about the number of private and public entities collecting data on everyone - that needs to be stopped. Personally I don't even want the local grocery knowing what foods I buy - not that I have anything to hide, but I don't think they should have the right to. There needs to be more prtection in place to protect the freedoms of individuals. I also think there should be a law requiring the destruction of the vast majority of data kept on people after a set period of time.
I wouldn't get the onstar vehicle nacigation system, as I don't want some big brother at GM monitoring every move I make in my car. I would rather that cell phones couldn't be used to track my location at any given time.
The government should be protecting the freedom not to have every move watched, and instead they seem to want to do it themselves.
Even when privacy laws do come they will likely be weak. These companies give far too much to politicians.
You can only imagine the whining from the credit card companies should they have to detroy the records of what I bought after a year or two.
It's time to lessen the influence of cash in DC and have politicians actually pass laws which benefit the voters.”
“Y2, looking at phone records from phone companies is not a police state. But regardless, what you are proposing is going back to, oh, the 1800's. Which isn't a bad idea but it's not realistic and it's not going to happen. You seem to be a proponent of cash-only purchases, no government services (which require data on citizens), no need for qualified driver's licenses, no SS, no verifiable voter registration, etc. Nothing that allows data collection for analysis or billing. I don't think we can go that route. Unless I'm mistaken on what you mean. But anytime you have information and services, you have databases and people analyzing the databases. It doesn't really matter if credit cards destroy your purchase records in a couple years, because it's real-time and they can see what you're doing the day you purchase, which is all they really care about. To catch terrorists in a planning stage, you need real-time data, not what they did two years ago.”
“No buck - there's a balance. Companies can keep a specified amount of data - which has to be detroyed after a set period of time.
It's the aparatus of a police state and ripe for abuse.
Europe has managed to enact far tighter privacy laws. I guess you could argue that there has been two bombings there - but then I don't think those plotting bompbs are going to be picking up their home phones to call Northern Pakistan.
This type of monitoring is easily avoided by those it is designed to catch - it's the average citizen who will get caught in the net.
The statement that this is all or nothing is just not true. Trying to portray a situation where there's no privacy, or you go back to the 1800s is a crude answer Buck.
You and I know there is a middle ground here. Where companies and government can still function, but people can't go out and get my cell phone history or my complete identity for $50 beacuse of a complete lack of effective privacy laws.
Looks up privacy laws. Many banks are outsourcing all your data handling to india. You think that's just a fact of life and that we should shrug an accept that a worker in Bangalore can get complete access to nearly every facet of your life?”
“Close, 'Haight-Ashbarburyic phother mucker'”
“Y2, government records are kept for long periods of time. Who works for the government? I do. Millions of people do... ordinary people just trying to make a living and not really super super super concerned about your personal data. People are people. People get disgruntled and can easily collect any sensitive data they can and do as they wish with it. Police officers, CIA agents, heck, anyone can get sensitive information and sell it or abuse it. You don't even trust the highest elected official in the United States of America, George W. Bush, so how in the heck are you ever gonna trust Joe Schmoe down at the SS office, or your bank teller who has access to all kinds of your financial information and could wire it to a Swiss bank if they wanted. The data and information is there, like it or not. The NSA is looking at current phone records, not really super old ones that you say would protect privacy, but current ones, in real-time, to check for trends. How is destroying phone records after 2-5 years gonna protect your current privacy you're concerned about? I sorta like knowing if there's a child molester living next door, or that the NSA is perusing generic existing phone records that already exist and can be looked at just the same by Johnny Doe working at the phone company anyway, so they are just looking at the records and seeing if there are cell phone calls from a cave in Afghanistan to some phone number in New York City so they can check it out. It's a no-brainer to me. They don't care about you or me or anyone's phone calls. They're looking at phone numbers. And looking for obvious trends. Period. If the NSA was bored enough to listen to my Mother's Day phone call, live on the phone, then I'd be pissed. But they'd never know about the phone call by looking at phone company records because there is nothing that would even trigger them caring.”
“Buck - I'm not talking about no records kept at all. Why do you seem to want to make it either year zero or it being acceptable your government and every corporations spying on you?
Nothing of interest until they find out a backpacking buddy you called has a friend who is a member of an extremist environmentalist group. Or you make one call to a muslim friend or business contact who has been calling his family in Pakistan every week for the past few years.
Look I'm not saying we're at the stage where everyone need panic now - but I think it's a significant step in the wrong direction and sets a dangerous precident for the future. It's a situation sanctioned for this 'war' which is open-ended (the war on terror will never completely be won) and ripe for abuse now or in the future.”
“Y2, I have no idea why bring things up like "environmentalists" and such. Do you think the NSA and CIA and all our national security type GOVERNMENTAL organizations are pro-Bush and filled with Bush employees? Don't let your paranoia and distrust of Bush figure into all branches of non-partisan goverment, like the NSA, like SS, like our police, like welfare, etc. I remember on the "gay marriage" thing you libs kept saying the slippery slope argument was ridiculous, that allowing gays to marry would not lead to other things... yet now if the NSA tries to protect our country from terrorists by looking at already existing phone calls from phone companies, you're thinking environmentalists are next on the list? C'mon, my friend! So, using your reasoning, I guess when a Democrat becomes President, I should fear the NSA spying on my church Sunday school class? And they'll keep satellite track of all vehicles in the U.S. that have an American flag displayed on their bumper?
If I have a backpacking buddy who lives in Pakistan and we talk frequently and the NSA simply approaches me and asks some questions, that's fine with me, I applaud it. Just like I do when my credit card company calls me with an inquiry about any odd purchase trends on my credit card. I'm not bothered by it. If this were in place before 9/11 and could have stopped the attack, or if it's stopped an attack since, that's fine with me. I have a newborn baby son right now and I don't like knowing there are people roaming this country at will as we speak wanting him dead. No, I don't want secret agents at every corner, but I don't mind the NSA looking through meaningless piles of phone call records already kept by phone companies, seeking odd trends that might be worth investigating.”
““The DoD has already done this. I have direct evidence that they crashed 2 of my computers after I posted and emailed my comparison to the current republican party and facsist parties of the past (using mainly primary sources, i might add). After both computers were hacked (with excellant firewall and anti-virus software), I couldn't even bring up DOS after the second crash. After the first computer crashed, I was able to bring up the computer (after 2 days of trying), and was able to view my firewall history. I pinged 4 "direct attacks" within 1/2 hour to the Department of Defense. Called the number, and got an answer that stupid people like sarge would believe. My reg comp crashed the next day, forever. 1 week later, the same thing happened to my laptop (i was using it to go online at that point). 2 weeks later, and 1 month prior to 2004 election, I was visited by 2 FBI agents. My boss (former Vietnam Protestor and current Iraq protestor) was visited by the SAME two FBI agents a week later.
Big Brother IS here people. Some of you may take comfort in that. Most of you don't. The fact is, it's been going on for some time now. I don't know about you nonconformist, but I don't like that fact that I have reprecussions from this government for my freedom of speech.
I guess what I'm ultimately trying to say is that while you are jesting about government observation, I don't see the joke because of my experiences. This is no laughing matter.........”
OMG! I have never heard such a line of bullsniffles before in my life! Let me get this right, you simply compare the Bush admin to facists and they go after your computer and come to your work place and yet Michael Moor goes untouched? LOL! And you expect us to believe that the DoD was crafty enough to get past your excellent firewall yet they aren’t good enough to hide where the ping’s are coming from? My my my, you really are a powerful enemy of the state. I bet Bush lies awake at night wondering what Buddha J. Bear is up to next. Bawhahahahaha!
”sticking my tongue on an aluminum sven saw in below zero weather... now that's a laughing matter!”
No, that’s moronic.
BTW genius facsist is spelled fascist, excellant is spelled excellent and reprecussions is spelled repercussions. My guess all your computer problems stem from the fact that you are about as good at fixing computers as you are at spelling.”
“Just to prove my point…
I believe George W. Bush is a fascist moron of the highest order not seen sense the rise of Hitler. He is a traitor to his country, his people and the International House of Pancakes. He should be removed from office as soon as possible and tried on criminal charges.
See, nothing happed. Seek help.”
“Notice how DnB hasn't posted since that last one!! Somethings up!”
“Orwell didn't talk about 'box knife worshipers' taking over the world.”
“i wonder if this is the first fuego thread i've ever agreed with sarge and buck?”
“Okay guys....BB, Y2 Violin, I think I found a country for you to move to. France appears to be pretty open to just about anything. Now you are probably going to have to learn Arabic since France will probably finish surrendering to them in ...oh 2023, (the started in the last Century) and you might want to get used to some other stuff...by the by, you have read Smith V Maryland?
Might want to....the stuff being collected is OKAY...without a warrant.
DARN, reality is such a problem.”
“XL - maybe Iran or North Korea would be goods places for you to go to since you seem to believe in their methods for controlling the people.”
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