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“ENS - No offense, but if you don't remember the cries from the left that we'd lose 100s of thousands of people then you weren't watching the news. It was quite a prevelant argument for not going.”
“Saddam's military performed terribly, reason being, the containment policy was working.
We need to contain N. Korea, however, the stakes are higher because they really do have WMDs. I think we should sanction them to hell right now. No aid, no anything until they are ready to disarm. If their people starve, it's their own fault.”
“my girlfriend at the time worked for CNN in the news room and she was even saying that we'd roll right into Iraq and all reports were consistent with that.
last edited: 6/14/05 6:55:23 PM”
“ENS - All I can say is I had many arguments before the war with liberals/Democrats who said that are losses would be in the hundreds of thousands for our troops. They used news reports to "back up" their claim. These debates were with numerous people. If you didn't see it I certainly believe you, but I still maintain that the reports were numerous. I'm not saying that every liberal believed that, but the argument was prevelant.
ENS - regarding your other post, North Koreas people are starving to death right now. Cannibalism is rampant among the North Koreans because their government deprives them of food so that they can build their military. I am not disagreeing with anything in that paragraph, just emphasizing that they are starving even without extra sanctions.
last edited: 6/14/05 7:04:42 PM”
“sarge, let them eat themselves to death =)”
“and they will continue to starve unless their crazed leader comes to the barganing table and talks about disarming. The approach we are taking right now is the correct approach. For once I can say Bush has a policy I support.”
“Senators Challenge White House on N. Korea By GEORGE GEDDA, Associated Press Writer
Tue Jun 14, 1:54 PM ET
WASHINGTON - Bush administration efforts to achieve nuclear disarmament in North Korea are not working and should be reconsidered, Senate Foreign Relations Committee members said Tuesday.
"The administration policy has been a failure," said Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware, the ranking Democrat.
"Obviously, we've not seen progress here," said Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb. "Something is not working."
Responding to the criticisms at a committee hearing, Assistant Secretary of State Christopher Hill said the administration believes that the six-party disarmament negotiation "is the way to go."
Because of a North Korean boycott, there have been no negotiations for the past year. But North Korea, in meetings with U.S. diplomats on June 3, said they were willing to resume the discussions.
U.S. intelligence officials and other analysts believe that North Korea could possess several nuclear weapons beyond the one or two the country has been thought to have had for years.
Hill acknowledged the longer the impasse persists, the greater the risk of nuclear proliferation by Pyongyang.
At the same time, he said, North Korea's boycott has meant that it cannot receive the economic and security benefits that a disarmament agreement would yield.
"If they are worried about their survival, they should think about another course," Hill said. International isolation is another price North Korea is paying for its refusal to disarm, he added.
Several senators mentioned the U.N. Security Council as a possible alternative to the six-party process. Hill declined to speculate on other measures the administration may be contemplating.
Biden said that as a result of the continuing impasse, "the confidence in our ability to ensure peace and stability in Northeast Asia has been shaken."
He said the administration, far from adopting a unified position, has been debating with itself over North Korea policy.
As examples of officials he said are not in step with officially stated policy, Biden cited Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld and U.N. Ambassador-designate John Bolton.
Committee Chairman Richard Lugar said the U.S. partners in the six-nation process South Korea, China, Japan and Russia don't seem particularly willing to bring pressure to bear on North Korea.
Hill agreed that China "has been reluctant" to use the full range of economic and political pressures to force a North Korean retreat.
If you notice both a Rep and a Dem are saying it isn't working. Just want to make sure you Reps think it is just the Dem's saying it ;)
last edited: 6/14/05 7:11:46 PM”
“well, the first Gulf War should have been an indication that Saddam's military capability was pathetic compared to ours.”
“If I were in charge of Foreign Policy, we would be in a hell of a mess.
I would open the Mexican border and allow one illegal in for every Liberal who got on a boat for France.
These wetbacks would have Teddy Kennedy on a boat within the week. Then we would have an Army.”
“thank God you're stuck in Arkansas
last edited: 6/14/05 7:20:35 PM”
“that's enough fuego for me.. back to hiking :)”
“Stuck in Arkansas? What does that mean? Where do you live?
Where do you backpack?”
“WTF kind of comment is that bacpac? The liberals aren't stopping anyone from joining the service?”
“go to my webshots bacpac, you'll see where I backpack.”
I have been there. Flew over 3 mile Island.
In the 80's I worked for a company that was bought by Datcom who was bought by High Voltage Engineering. I went to Datcom to set up a gauge line we built in North Little Rock.
I have been all over the US and a lot of the world.
Ever been to Arkansas?”
“the closest I have been to Arkansas is the Shiloh National Battlefield in western Tennessee. I'll get there one day to see the Ozarks.”
“WTF kind of comment is that bacpac? The liberals aren't stopping anyone from joining the service?”
They would if they could.
I don't see many liberals rallying around the flag. If I were in charge we would all be speaking Spanish and Liberals would be learning French. Comprende?”
“Don't come to Arkansas, we are stuck here.”
“Damn, not that's some funny chit bacpac! LOL!
Don't let Violin see ya badmouthing Mexicans. Badmouthing Americans is fine, but leave the Mexicans alone.”
“I hate it when people edit a post after I have replied to it. And even hate it worse after they made a subsequent post and edited their previous after the second.
Speaks to their conviction and character.”
“If I had an Army of Mexicans I could conquer the DNC.
“Was this thread titled "Noth Korea" the whole time? I swear it said "North Korea". dang it!”
“I have different ideas about International politics, but I don't mind stirring in social politics into the mix.
As far as I am concerned a good debate is a good debate.
Continue with whatever it was you were discussing.”
“bacpac since you want to speak Spanish why don't you just move to Mexico ;)”
“Nigal! I miss your posts.
“I have been to Mexico. Why would I want to live there?”
“The second largest Hispanic economy in the world is in the United States.
Think about it.”
“Can anyone say Capitalism?”
“can you say illegal Mexicans. If most were caught and sent back we wouldn't have that many Mexican's”
“Sarge, back to your thread.
I don't know how the US Korean economy rates in the world, but someone should look it up.”
“Good point Ewker.
We should consider cutting back on legal imigration of other countries and increasing legal imigration of Hispanics.”
“Mexican workers do work harder than just about anyone including Americans...”
“Who would pay for yet another unnecessary war and who's kids will have to be killed and mangled in it?
Koreans, like Japanese will fight like mad men.
The largest economy in the world, the U.S., could surely dominate any country on earth as in the past.
But the needless death and destruction and wasted resources simply cannot be justified.
World War II was the greatest disaster in human history.
last edited: 6/15/05 8:00:47 AM”
“I think it's fair to say the US troops are being held back. Rules of engagement are incredibly conservative for a war, as far as I can tell. That's because we are fighting a guerilla war in someone else's country and tryin to win the hearts and minds of the populace, because the goals go far beyond defeating the enemy.
Bush and allies have a strategic plan for turning Iraq into an ally and creating more pro-American states in the middle east. In their (probably correct view), the carnage that would result from unrestrained use of force would doom their plan to failure. If the war had been about getting Saddam and ensuring an unfettered search for WMD - we could have declared victory and left long ago and whoever took up residence would know we'd be back if they went too far out of line. As it is, we may end up with a situation where our enemies will believe that we don't have the stomach for anythin like a repeat.
The strategic and economic goals are what held Bush-I back and the reason he let Saddam wipe out the Shiite rebellion (that Bush-I asked for) almost toppled him (and would have if the US hadn't. Bush and the Saudis wanted Iraq as a strong unified bulwark against Iran and were afraid that the Shiite leaders were too close to Iran.”
“That's because we are fighting a guerilla war in someone else's country and tryin to win the hearts and minds of the populace, because the goals go far beyond defeating the enemy.
sounds like Vietnam all over again”
“World War II was the greatest disaster in human history.
last edited: 6/15/05 8:00:47 AM
I think the collapse of Rome which introduced the 400 years of the dark ages to be a bigger catastrophe.
Politically Rome was corrupt and cruel, but the vacumn left behind led to complete collapse of all communications and trade, After pax romana had led to a civilization the relied on trade for the distribution of food and building materials.
This left the continent of Europe with no food, no housing, no system of justice, no defense, no medicine.
Those who took advantage of the chaos were the Vikings who were basically Hells Angels in boats instead of on bikes, and the Church which resorted to torture and burning alive all who did not support them.
400 years MarkO, and we are discussing how horrible it will be to be in Iraq for 8.”
“Manuka - they're only called the dark ages as relatively little is (was) known about it. It doesn't necessaryily imply that the times were more or less violent.”
“Y2, all historical research shows there was not just violence but countless deaths by disease due to loss of knowledge.
Water for drinking and sewage for removal were highly engineered under the Romans. How many cholera and typhoid deaths occurred in Europe during those 400 years of ignorance.
The rise of the church in the wake of the Roman Empire was also characterized by killing off all traditional healers as they also served as the link to older religions, too bad that all the doctors have to be killed off to ensure the populace accepts this NEW religion.
Dark in both meanings of the word.
Y2, so you think that WWII was a bigger disaster than the dark ages ??
last edited: 6/15/05 11:29:02 AM”
“I'd also contest the idea that WWII was the biggest disaster. It averted other disasters... like Nazi conquest of Europe and completion of the final solution.”
“Pedxing, the Nazi 'final solution' had no finality.
The society was built on the same model as Timur the lame and other maurauding conquerors where they needed a constant influx of confiscated goods to sustain a public spending program that was completely out of line with National income. After Jews, Gypsies, dissidents, handicapped, Slavics, Ethiopeans (Il Duce's contribution) there would have been additions to the list until their empire collapsed, or someone in a position of trust came up with the concept of deficit spending.”
“OK guys, the greatest disaster of modern times.
My point is that war is disaster.
Though it makes fortunes for those in the position to make money from it, war is to be avoided.
I think most Europeans realize that after the experience of WW's I & II.”
“You are probably right Manuka. Hitler did seem to require enemies and scapeoats. They probably would have needed new targets. Perhaps somethin like an inquisition where they searched for hidden jews.”
“"OK guys, the greatest disaster of modern times.....MarkO
Modern ?? just how old are you MarkO ? all this was waaaaay before I was born.
(and yes I am just kidding you here)”
“Be the first one one your block to have your kid come home in a box.”
“So now the libbies don't support a Korean attack ... the story is changing ...
I seem to remember them supporting "Korea" and "Iran", but not "Iraq.
Now ... not so much?
Basically, whatever Bush does, they support the opposite.
last edited: 1/31/06 2:50:14 PM”
“I can only speak for myself.......and you can't Sargie!!”
“Marko - You represent all liberals.”
“Assaulting either or both of those countries would be a disaster.
The invasion of Iraq is a big enough mess.
Going after North Korea and Iran would likely be worse, but no telling how much worse.”
“Sarge, why do you promote violence??”
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