The Power of Prayer

“theology class has made me hungry. sarge, im sure youll have the last word, so i leave you to it”

“dayhiker - A debate is a discussion. (dictionary.com) - Not to be confused with an argument, although it can include argument.

To consider something; deliberate.
To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.
Obsolete. To fight or quarrel.
last edited: 7/19/05 1:27:08 PM”

“You have to take the responsibility yourself

that i agree with. thats why i dont believe in the need for a Great Mediator”

“God understands your frustration, but because of free will, He's not going to make you love Him. Love is not forced. It cannot exist by force.

Thanks for making my (earlier) point. This is why you shouldn't brainwash your kids.

And thanks for "babying" up your post - now it makes sense, somewhat.”

“i think what dh means is a sharing of ideas and beliefs, without it turning into a point-for-point analysis of the other persons ideas and attempting to persuade the other guy to your belief”

“dammit, i said i was leaving and i mean it now!”

“Sarge - I think you made my point. If you'll look around, you're the only one keeping score.”

“Mutt - Are you going to teach your kids about love?”

“dayhiker - What are you talking about? Be specific please, you're being vague.”

“Sarge, you're always making things personal! Argue my point, not me!

;-)”

“That is your philosophy, is it not? How to properly raise kids? Isn't that what we were discussing?”

“The point is teaching kids about love is not making them love you.”

“Actually, I thought you dropped it. And your question is a non sequitur to the argument I made.

(and my previous post was a joke, son)”

“Prayer is a great tool for folks to use to center themselves during (before/after)a busy day. Used in a meditative, mind calming way I am sure that it has great physiological, and psychological efffects.



I am all for the power of prayer and its meditative aspects.



Prayer as a means of communication or supplication to a higher being is , of course, a joke.


There is no higher being you dillusional twits.

Pray to find inner peace, calmness and to center yourself.

If you want something done . . .go do it yourself.”

“Yeah right lee, you speek as if you really weren't on your knees sweating, crying and praying on Nov. 2nd that Bush wouldn't be elected. Kerry got stomped so you assume there's no god. nyuck nyuck.

You Blue Staters are all alike.


Then again, there's a lot of us on the right who pry G-d would take Bush. LOL!”

“Mutt - I see you want to dodge the point (which is what prompted this side discussion) that teaching kids about love is not making them love you.

Teaching kids about God is not making them love God.

Kids still have free-will, even when brought up in a Christian environment.

It's the whole point of this.

If you want to drop it, fine. If that is easier for you.
last edited: 7/19/05 2:49:04 PM”

“Why does this even have to be a debate? Why can't folks just discuss things?”
dayhiker
1:23:56 PM
7/19/05

Thats about the smartest thing said thus far...

Mutt, the prayers my daughter and I say are by no means indoctrination (great job trying to bait though. BTW its good to see ya back). I want to instill in her a sense of gratitude, humility and service to others. All of these virtues are exemplified by Christs life. I figure that he is the best role model out there. I have no problem with her seeking answers elsewhere. She will live her life according to how she needs to. God will lead her to him, thats his will for all of us.

On a personal note my church attendance has been sporatic at best lately. I have been really mulling overmy faith and my life. Its humbling when your 4.5 year old is the motivator to go to church. She loves it and looks forward to sundays. That makes me happy, it also motivates me.

The arguing is simply sad an unnecessary but expected. If I were a betting mad I'd be shocked if God were happy with the way any of us act.”

“Funny how people don't like debate. Like it's a bad thing. These people take offense to opposing viewpoints. Usually, they're the same ones who say "everyone has a right to their opinion", as if that is the same thing as everybody is always right. Debate is what allows us to grow as a society. It suddenly turns ugly when one party decides they no longer want to debate. That is where civilization falls apart.”

““Why does this even have to be a debate? Why can't folks just discuss things?”
dayhiker
1:23:56 PM
7/19/05

Thats about the smartest thing said thus far..."

Birch, you mean to say that this whole thread could have been avoided somehow if we were to just mind our own Ps and Qs?

Huh...”

“Nigal, I mean that when civility is removed a debate ensues versus a discussion.

IMO a debate is about winning and being right,whereas a discussion is about sharing ideas and opinions without trying to win. This thread started off pretty well before the names, sarcasm and expected and predictable factions started to get side tracked into a pissing contest. This is par though. Just my $.02.”

“Who is trying to win birch? This is a debate. In a debate you go back and forth with a viewpoint. Same thing with a discussion. You are making the assumption that one or more people want to "win". What is this based on? Why don't you get specific and name names and a particular thing they said instead of coming into these conversations (not the first time) and complaining that people aren't "discussing" the way you want them to. Use the ignore button if it bothers you that much. Otherwise, you come across as somebody who thinks they're everybody's daddy. You seem to think you know what others are thinking and what their motivations are.

IMO, my $.02 is that you need to worry about yourself instead of thinking you're everyone's keeper.

Why don't you spend some time reading the Bible instead of criticizing other Christians so next time you go to church it will be for the purpose of worship and not to do it for your child? Just some friendly advice with a smiley face and an IMHO LOL.
last edited: 7/19/05 5:26:32 PM”

“at ease, sargeant”

“carry on”

“tally ho”

“land ho”

“Sarge, no need to be defensive. If I have issue with you I will approach you personally.

"instead of coming into these conversations..." I posted just over 4 hours after this thread was brought back and have followed and read each post...all 225 of em. A lack of posting and just jumping in are entirely different. No need to assume the worst. There are plenty of people who have had this discussion in the 6 years I have been following this site, and there are those who for years have immediately gotten mean and cruel. Thats is what my comments were about. Lighten up for goodness sakes.”

“Lighten up for goodness sakes. - birch

I said "smiley face" and "LOL".

It's about style, not substance.”

“I decided to edit out my attempt at being specific in response to Sarges request.

Sarge, drink a beer and go get laid.
last edited: 7/20/05 5:33:05 AM”

“I am amused by violink, mutt and others who descibe, define, and demean faith. I don't know where they get their doctrine, but it is never anything I have experienced or observed.”

“Agreed.”

“No, Violink is of the worst sort. He'll post scripture to aid his own ends on one thread and then belittle faith on the next.”

“Birch, you seem like you have your head on straight, then.

BBW - As far as me "demeaning" xtianity, I'm simply returning the favor. Xtianity demeaned my and everyone else's faith when Man decided to call it the "one true religion." Screw that - there's no possible way that pathetic fairy tale is true. F Jesus, and F your xtian anthropmorphic child-god. (disclaimer: at least the xtian myth is definitely false, not necessarily its core message of love and forgiveness and such).”

“Teaching kids about God is not making them love God.

Kids still have free-will, even when brought up in a Christian environment.

Teaching kids about only 1 religion and making them fear God and Hell is not making them "love" God, you're right about that - it can't be forced. Kids *can* have free will when brought up in a xtian environment *if* the child isn't cajoled, threatened with hell and damnation, told over and over it's the only path to God, and if the parents make an honest attempt to expose their kids to different religions.”

“I don't know about "discussion" vs. "debate" - I see no problem with launching arguments and seeing how they hold up. But, I definitely agree with Birch that the name calling and the bashing of individuals is sad and, to me, distasteful. I know I've gotten frustrated with people and launched sharper barbs than I should have (and, Birch, saying that a post is the smartest thing so far is a barb at all the other posts-- this isn't to bash Birch - I've probably done worse in the past week + I think the guy is awesome).

The problem with singling posts out (as I've experienced in the past) is that hostility spills over from one thread to the next... and its impossible to know where it came from.”

“I’m kind of the opposite Ped. If I said anything that anyone, especially someone as important to me as birch, I want to know. If for no other reason than to modify my behavior so as not to offend them again or so I may explain myself more clearly.

I try to confine my opinions about other’s religions where they belong but when pet peeves of mine such as the use of fear for leverage (hell, original sin) I tend to spew before thinking. Hope I wasn’t included in the criticism but if I was feel free to kindly let me know. I won’t be offended.”

“Kids *can* have free will when brought up in a xtian environment *if* the child isn't cajoled, threatened with hell and damnation, told over and over it's the only path to God, and if the parents make an honest attempt to expose their kids to different religions. - mutt

If Christianity is the parents belief, then are you suggesting parents teach their kids something other than their belief? Are you suggesting parents don't teach their children the morals of which they subscribe?

pedxing - agreed
last edited: 7/20/05 9:59:12 AM”

“Nigal - I know you're ignoring my posts, (because they make you back up your beliefs) but your claim that Christians invented a hell of fire and damnation makes no logical sense. The description of hell being a place of fiery damnation came before Christianity, straight from the Bible, as quoted in a previous post.

Whoever told you that "fear tactic" lie misguided your thinking.”

“BBW - As far as me "demeaning" xtianity, I'm simply returning the favor. Xtianity demeaned my and everyone else's faith when Man decided to call it the "one true religion." Screw that - there's no possible way that pathetic fairy tale is true. F Jesus, and F your xtian anthropmorphic child-god. (disclaimer: at least the xtian myth is definitely false, not necessarily its core message of love and forgiveness and such).”
Mutt
8:29:24 AM
7/20/05

Who said Christianity was the only religion? You will probably find evidence that someone said that about every religion. I am sure someone said the same about Atheism. Not all faithful feel that way. It really isn't a rational reason to demean Christianity.”

“Holy crap! It's my prom date from my junior year of high school!”

“LOL nigal
:)~”

“Believe it or not, I wasn't always this smooth and pimpish.”

“no way you?????”

“Hard to believe, I know!”

“Nigal - to me, it's just the way the tenor shifts and it is really hard to pin point where or why it happens.

For example, I once said a believing that Al-Qeda opposed us just because they hated our freedoms was willful blindness. Someone (who apparently believed that) responded with a more personal attack. I felt the personal attack was coming close to crossing the line, but someone else might have felt I crossed a line, a third person might have felt no line was crossed until things escalated further.”

“I challenge bacpac or Nigal to point out where I have demeaned faith.”

“Oh all of a sudden Violin has such a strong strong sense of honor and character? Where was this morality when you called me a racist and fabricated quotes?”

“Put up or shut up Pugsley.”

“ped, I am so deeply offended by your comments as I am above reproach or correction LOL. Good point about my post too, kind of hypocritical.

I love a good discussion, its a fine line though. I have also learned with whom I can discuss things. Ped, Reformed lurker are two examples, though I would saw that in many cases I disagree with them I always respect their opinion and experiences. With others things just go down hill.

"Birch, you seem like you have your head on straight, then" Thanks Mutt, I almost signe d my earlier post the Christofascist, just for old times sake...

I dont mind being called out by people I respect and value, Nigal being a good example. I appreciatte his honesty with me and the fact that he doesnt let nme slide just cause we are friends...

Dang, I sound too frickin' friendly today. I geuss 8 hours of bickering in negotiations will suck all the mean outta ya.
last edited: 7/20/05 3:57:15 PM”