“Pop quiz:

What is the final paragraph of Charels Darwin's "The Origin of Species"?


'There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone circling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.'”

““Believing in God does not make one a "xtian fundamentalist", nor does it make one wish for creationism to be taught as science.” - Phaedrus

Wow! Did you think of that all by yourself?”

“According to the Princeton Review, Kansas ranks 41st in education.”

“Mutt, you have argued that (paraphrasing) we who believe in God are ignoring science and are fools.

No Sarge, that's not what I argued. I believe in a higher power - it's just something I feel in my heart is true. However, I don't let issues of faith interfere with what science shows us to be highly likely true (e.g. evolution). I don't ignore science, and I don't consider myself too big of a fool.”

“There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator

Well, typically, when one speaks of evolution, it is a topic separate from abiogenesis. Unless, of course, you've been duped into believing in something like ID "science", and then your whole argument rests on such obfuscations.”

““Well, typically, when one speaks of evolution, it is a topic separate from abiogenesis. Unless, of course, you've been duped into believing in something like ID "science", and then your whole argument rests on such obfuscations.”

Actually Mutt my views of creation come from sources that make it nearly impossible to even participate in discussions like this. It is just so far out in left field that it would be considered irrelevant in any secular view. I found the last paragraph of Darwin’s book to be interesting because so often people assume Darwinism is devoid of any belief in a Creator.”

“That's cool, Nigal. I wasn't specifically targeting you in that last post - it was a generalized "you".”

“You suck.”

“Oh man, I didn't even really answer it any how. LOL! No, I have not been suckered by the ID science as it is presented.”

“As it is presented, what part do you disagree with?”

“That it's science? Yeah, that's prolly a big one.”

“I was directing that question to Nigal.”

“some people say that life and the earth and the universe is too grand and complex to have come about by accident. i am leaning towards agreeing with them. however, i also believe that life and the earth and the universe is too grand and complex to have been created in 6 days. and i believe that these views do not conflict with each other. i believe god took 5 billion years to create the earth, and 15 billion years to create us. 6 days, to me, sounds like a rush job. you couldnt even travel a significant fraction of the galaxy in six days if you were traveling at light speed, let alone create it. the magical six-day god that poof! pulled a universe out of a hat seems awfully silly, and is not only a deus ex machina in reverse, it defies ochms razor. so there. i have spoken
last edited: 8/13/05 1:52:08 PM”

“people generally tend to think of scientists as atheists. however, theres a couple of different ways to define atheism. theres the sort of atheism were you flat-out deny the existence of a god. that is the more extreme atheism. i am guessing that most scientists fall into the less extreme view: god may or may not exist, but since there is currently nothing that we can say about him definitively, his existence or non-existence is irrelevant (to science). neither darwin nor einstein were atheists in the extreme sense, for they both referred to a Creator.
last edited: 8/13/05 2:00:10 PM”

“CB-those are agnostics and have little to do with atheism.”

“cb - Agreed with your "some people say" post ...”

“Here we go again.

The "six day" story in the Bible is not the only 'creation' story in the Bible. There is one other, and perhaps a third (or more?).

Think symbolic/metaphoric/??. The number "7" in the Bible [i][b]often[b][i] designates perfection. So the Shabot being on the 7th day suggests that Adonai/Elohim rested when creation was completed.”

“although, CB, the one thing I disagreed w/ in your post was that part about it would have to take longer than 6 days for God to create the universe. I do believe ChicagoMark is on the mark with his post regarding this. Nevertheless, God can do all things, and He could have done it in 6 had He chose to do so. Now if you're going to ask, "Then why didn't He?", don't forget to ask a million other questions as well, like "Why didn't He do it in 1 second?" "Why didn't He just think about all this happening?", etc. In other words, some of us humans got this idea He did it in 6, so just because He didn't, doesn't mean we should be suspicious because He didn't do it in 6. It was our fault we got that idea in the first place. Does any of that make sense? (if not, think "Red Herring", but not the biblical one)
last edited: 8/13/05 6:38:24 PM”

“Crash,

I heard an interview with Gerald L. Schroeder on the radio the other day and he is amazing. He goes so much deeper into meanings and events than any other Creationist I’ve read or heard. He is a devout Jewish Israeli so he brings views from religious writings most Creationists don’t even know about such as Talmud and Kabala. But he doesn’t abandon all logic either. He is a brilliant physicist. I sometimes had trouble following him because when compared to other Creationists he so far advanced it’s like comparing 8th grade earth science to quantum physics.


He seems to be of the same mind as you Crash because he doesn’t ignore the obvious and proven facts about the world but he does seek to explain how they happened. For instance while he does believe in the world being billions of years old he still believes it was done in six days through time compression. I know it sounds crazy when I say it. I don’t take an interest in Creationism but his new book’s on Amazon for about $10. I thought I might buy it and see how his writing is.”

“It also could have been done in 6 days if white holes exist.”

“God can do all things

thats something you believe and i dont”

“Tell Him that.”

“god, i dont believe you can do everything”

“oops. this is crash bang on mike and nicholes computer”

“What is God limited by?”

“What is God limited by?”
Sarge
5:44:13 PM
8/14/05

Your astounding arrogance.”

“Your astounding arrogance. - externalvalidator

So you believe I have the power to limit God? That's very flattering, but arrogant in and of itself. It's too bad that people who don't belive in God are afraid to have real discussion about Him. It's ... typical.”

“crash - externalvalidator is afraid we might have a meaningful discussion. I hope his fear of knowledge exchange won't affect your willingness to discuss this further.”

“I drove by my mom's grave the other day with my wife. I rarely visit, although I think about her all the time.

I asked my wife, K, if she thought it was weird that I only visit about once per year.

She reminded me of what I've often told her. I don't think she's there. I feel that she is with me at all times. And I sometimes have an idea or an interaction with someone that almost seems like a set up by her.

So, for me, what it gets down to is that when God created my mom, it wasn't her arms and legs that were the primary creation. It was the soul.

I've never seen any observable evidence of the soul. Death and Christian ideas of Heaven seem to suggest that the soul can act independently of a physical body.

I understand where the evangelicals are coming from. Many belong to churches without hierarchy, charismatic experience or emphasis on tradition. The Bible is paramount. Its literal inerrance is more important than anything because that is the sole source of authority in those churches.

I can understand people in that situation making as much as they do about evolution. However, it is possible to derive authority from other sources. Jesus/God/Creator is alive in the world, inside people's minds and imaginations, inside the experience of peoples throughout history.

Complement the book with other revelations of Christ's work. The Genesis story should not stand alone.”

“"those are agnostics and have little to do with atheism"

yes, those are also referred to as agnostics. but in a linguistic sense, atheism also means those who just do not care, or are against, any particular theism,. i dont have time to go into more detail. ill explain it to you better later.

“What is God limited by?”
Sarge

i dont know what gods limits are, but im not going to start with the assumption that he is all-powerful. i see no reason to. that is purely ancient semitic propaganda, left over from back in the day thousands of years ago when hundreds of different tribal-deity based religions were competing for followers. :"my gods bigger than your god cuz he can move mountains", etc, until finally "my god is all powerful". the "God" of moses probably wasnt "God" at all, but one of the fiercer "gods" that could kick everybodys ass”

“c! - God's unlimited power is defined in the Bible. Since you are unwilling to accept the Bible as gospel, we can look at it another way.

Got created the entire universe with a thought. If your definition of "all-powerful" is something greater than that, you have very high expectations. If man could do that, I'm sure you'd say he's all powerful, but since you're so opposed to the idea of a creator, you won't offer God that same courtesy.”

“Nice post RL!”

“Crash, it’s OK to simply say “I don’t know who G-d is or how things happen.”, rather than to simply one day up and say “I believe! I believe!” and put all your eggs in one basket and subscribe to one single theological view. G-d loves a curious person and if someone seeks answers concerning Him they will get answers. We have our whole lives to find and experience G-d and He doesn’t judge us on what we don’t know yet. There’s no “Turn or burn/Fly or fry” urgency with Hashem.”

“We have our whole lives to find and experience G-d and He doesn’t judge us on what we don’t know yet.

That's a lie. There is one way to God. Through belief and trust Jesus Christ as your savior. God asks for our love. That is WHY He created us. It's very simple.”

“That's a lie. There is one way to God. Through belief and trust Jesus Christ as your savior.

Nope, that is the greatest lie the devil has played on humanity. Your "religion" is false, Sarge. Sorry, but you'll realize this eventually. The fact is, Christianity is a false religion, period, end of story. That's why I can look at the sky and say "phuck jebus" and not be at all worried - because it's all a great lie. And that is a fact.”

“Why would you do that?

It's like if I looked at a rainbow and said "phuck leprichans!" Why would anybody do that, it's silly, ... unless they're subconsciously wrestling with God?”

“To demonstrate that your religion is false. Which it is, and that is fact. :D”

“So you think by you saying "phuck jebus" that is proof that my religion is false?

Wow.

No wonder you wouldn't take that bet earlier about fallacies.”

“lol - yep, that and showing that the bible is a complete piece of sh1t.”

“That's very convincing.”

“Belief systems are personal and I think you should respect what other people believe. I'm sure teaching Creationism in the schools won't be all that popular with Hindu's, Bhuddists etc....all who have valid religous beliefs. I'm a Christian, I believe in God but I think evolution is the only tangible answer out there for the schools right now.”

“More 'Bibs' and 'Libs', but never a solution.”

“The real problem is that Sarge and the vein of Christianity that he represents give a bad name to all other Christians.

His one dimensional approach to faith makes it easy for Mutt to come in and label all of Christianity "false."

There are many facts that essentially prove evolution to be true. There are many facts that prove various books of the Bible to be metaphorical, literary and subject to historical context.

Refusing to accept those facts makes the Christian look foolish. And it also allows non-Christians in the discussion, or those looking for legitimate truth to discard the entire thing.

Sarge gets in the way of the Lord's work.”

“Sarge doesn't give Christians a bad name. He gives Sarge a bad name.

Some ppl may label create labels for Christians based on his behavior, but not all of us will do that.

Every "group" has their Sarge. But, they also have their RLs which evens things out in the long run.”

“We all represent noone but ourselves. S-rge included.”

“reformed lurker - Obviously you haven't been following what I've written. I not only recently said that I believe evolution to be true, but I've also said that there are metaphorical books in the Bible.

You just made up a bunch of untruths to bust on me.

I'm awaiting an apology.

(plus you did it in an unchristian like way, so you're a hypocrite)

tarabull - You're a whiner. You give tarabull a bad name.
last edited: 8/15/05 11:48:43 AM”

“Sorry, Sarge. I'll have to find those posts.

Nigal. I would take issue with that a little. What is the point of an organized religion without concerted action?

I, personally, feel that the members of a particular tradition have a responsibility to walk together with others in that tradition.

Moderate Muslims have a responsibility to speak out against terrorists. Good Christians have a responsibility to check the darker angels of our nature.

Whether we like it or not, we are walking billboards for our groups and traditions.

And I see no point in belonging to a faith tradition unless I can add my efforts to those of others to do something truly great.”

“Sarge. I just reread your posts about accepting evolution and I apologize.”

“That's ok.”

“reformed lurker - You know what's the most pathetic thing about your accusation above?

Look at this post by you from 11 days ago:

“The truest thing said today was when Sarge said that the Biblical passages about crowns in heaven were "metaphorical." - reformed lurker”