“Whoa, Sarge? I believe Trailkicker is genuine. I don't think one must know the 5 points of Calvinism or the counter views of Arminianism or all the denominationalism and theology-of-man stuff to truly be led of God as a Pastor. That's just the academics of man. To have a passion for what Christ did on the cross and what it means for humankind and to know the Bible would seem to be what's important. I was lucky enough to go to Biola University and learn some theology, but I don't think that makes one more capable of leading a local fellowship of believers. I mean, look at what Trailkicker is doing compared to me? I hope to live in the garage of his heavenly mansion. Academic knowledge can actually turn you into a Pharisee.”

“Thank you Buck. If you believe, you will have your own mansion in heaven. I hope we can be neighbors. For the record, I have not been to seminary or bible college. I am being self taught by a home study course from Liberty University and a group of local pastors from different demoninations in my local area that I meet with twice a week for 4 hours. I never said I knew it all, and I don't want to. And I do not subscribe to the likes of men like John Smith or Mr. Calvin that try to elevate themselves to saintly status by perverting the word of God. There is only ONE WORD,GODS WORD.
last edited: 8/03/05 5:50:42 PM”

““TrailKicker - I think you teach crapism. Anybody who did any studying of the Bible whatsoever would have known what Buck was talking about.

Or, maybe you just teach squatism.

Is that what you teach Trailkicker? Squat?

That's what I thought.

You're a pastor like I'm a hippie.

smell 'ya later”

Sarge, I do not know what religion you believe in, or what God you believe in, but this not the way any believer of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit would act. The bible tells us to love each other and treat each other with respect, I have not, nor will I insult you in any way, shape, or form as you have done to me. I will pray for you Sarge, or Jim, or whatever you like to go by. By the way, my name is Paul and I'm very glad to make your aquaintance. And I still look forward to sitting down and chatting with you one day. I hope you have a nice evening.
last edited: 8/03/05 6:24:55 PM”

“Buck - He's a phoney. I agree with everything else you said though. Nevertheless, he's not genuine.”

“Hey "Paul". What does your Bible say about lying?”

“Sarge, could you please explain to me why you find it necessary to be attacking me like this?”

“I don't find it necessary. Why do you find it necessary to eat corn?

Hey, TrailKicker67, what courses did you take in your online class? I want to be able to speak your language. Thanks.”

“I'm not taking any online courses. It is an entire course of studies on audio and video with workbooks and tests. So you don't find it necessary to attack me, you are just doing this for fun?”

“I'm not taking any online courses. It is an entire course of studies on audio and video with workbooks and tests.

What's the name of the course?

So you don't find it necessary to attack me, you are just doing this for fun?

No.”

“(shhhh ... he's looking it up)”

“I can tell ya who is coming across as the Christian person here.”

“style over substance - right y2?

That's what you guys like.”

“Sarge, it's from the Liberty Home Bible Institute, Jerry Falwell's Church. Both my wife and I are studying this course. You see, I have a family to support and I do not have a full time Pastors position as my church cannot support this. I do have another job that I pay the bills with. It is all too clear to me that you are just trying to stir something up. A few years ago, I would have taken your insults the wrong way and been cursing you out to no end. However, I have changed my ways and am no longer that way. You on the other hand, are more of a person that likes to stir up hate and discontent (by the way, God hates things like that). My bible says that God hates liars, and God does not hate me because I am not a liar. You do not feel this way and your mind will not be changed, therefore I do not have any more time to continue this endless debate with you about what I do or who I am. This is very childish of you and I do not care if you believe me or not, it does not matter. I do not subscribe to the actions and words of a man such as yourself. I tried to be nice and explain to you whatever it is you continue to chatter about, however you wish to carry on in a very negative way and insult me. I have no more time for you, perhaps someone else does.

P.S. Sarge, I very happy for you if you have great knowledge about the bible, I just hope you use it correctly, i.e. for His glory and not your own.
last edited: 8/03/05 6:54:00 PM”

“As of course being a Christian is all about trying to prove how smart you are and how much you know.”

“when it comes to being a better christian, i would say, yes, style (how you act) is more important than substance (what you know, can quote, can argue, can prove, etc)”

“Sarge, I have no "theological" problem with what TrailKicker has been sharing, it sounds straight-up Biblical to me, but even if you do, which is okay, where's the gentleness and respect?”

“sarge is gentle like a fish is hairy”

“TrailKicker - Ok. You're the real deal. I truly believe you. I have a short fuse for Christians who only believe what will not upset others. I am more concerned about people distorting the message than I am about looking like a "nice-Christian". It really pisses me off like you wouldn't believe. You said that you believed something Biblical, but you wouldn't actually say what the Bible says because, in your words, "others would disagree with [you]". There is no instance in the Bible of Jesus or any of his disciples accepting what others say, when it's not Biblical, so as not to upset them. In fact, there are numerous preachings against that. I should have taken it off here with you, but you provide no email address. Please forgive my rudeness. Yes, I've got to get that under control.

Y2 - It's easy to not be a hypocrite when you have no moral system.

Crash - What up dawg?

Buck - I'm not gentle. I don't respect people respecting man's opinion of them more than what the Word says. It's more important than pleasing everyone. You're right though. TrailKicker didn't deserve that.”

“Sarge, it was nice of you to apologize. I have this verse memorized and I too often fail in keeping it.

1 Peter 3:15 - but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;”

“That's awesome! I can't normally remember beyond about 4 words, but that's worth the attempt.”

“"Sarge, I do not know what religion you believe in, or what God you believe in, but this not the way any believer of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit would act. The bible tells us to love each other and treat each other with respect, I have not, nor will I insult you in any way, shape, or form as you have done to me. I will pray for you Sarge, or Jim, or whatever you like to go by."

Looks like me and Father Mulcahy have more in common than him and Sarge which is hard to believe because his boss is a Jewish carpenter and my boss is the Jewish carpenter’s Creator. LOL!”

“Nigal - Did Christian's preach that hell is a fiery place of damnation before or after it was written in the Bible?”

“I have a short fuse for Christians who only believe what will not upset others. I am more concerned about people distorting the message than I am about looking like a "nice-Christian". It really pisses me off like you wouldn't believe. You said that you believed something Biblical, but you wouldn't actually say what the Bible says because, in your words, "others would disagree with [you]". There is no instance in the Bible of Jesus or any of his disciples accepting what others say, when it's not Biblical, so as not to upset them. In fact, there are numerous preachings against that. I should have taken it off here with you, but you provide no email address. Please forgive my rudeness. Yes, I've got to get that under control.

Sarge, Thank you. Thank you very much for your apology, that meant more to me today than anything else other than the time I spend in prayer with my Father. I just want you to understand that I do believe in a lot of things that will upset others, but I try to be a kind and gentle person and not thrust myself too strongly upon people that I have just met. As soon as people find out I am a preacher, they immediatly start attacking me or put a huge wall up and close up. Believe me, when it comes to fire and brimstone and telling it like it is, I can be a real pushy person in the pulpit. I would NEVER distort the message, that is not what I am commanded to do. But outside of the pulpit, I try to tone it down until I get to know a person better and I can talk to them in a deeper conversation. I don't like to scare people away, that is something I have had to deal with for sometime. And you are quite correct about Jesus and his disciples, we are in total agreement on that fact. Sarge, you're a bit abrasive but you're OK, I could get along with someone like you. Again, thank you for the apology.”

“Mutt, you can tell a designer exists by seeing what is designed. Hello? I'm lost here. It's like you're saying I have to prove a designer made the pants I'm wearing despite the fact that I'm wearing designer* pants.

That's a ridiculous stretch in your analogy, but in essence, yes, you have to provide some evidence of a designer. Look, we can observe randomness/chaos/chance/order, measure it, predict it. Much of science is based on this. Therefore, these kinds of hypotheses are reasonable. But we have no empirical evidence of a designer. None. You're simply ascribing an anthropomorphic phenomenon (something being designed by intelligence) to a process that is not completely understood by anyone, and saying - "look, it's got to have been designed." That's not scientific, in fact, with a complete lack of evidence of a designer it's the antithesis of science. The process of looking for hard evidence of a creator might be scientific - hell, that would be the scientific find of humanity's lifetime. But ascribing a creator to something that might just as well be ascribed to chaos et al. is simply a leap of faith - not science. It's perfectly okay to look at the heavens and personally believe it was Created - like Phaedrus, but if you're going to be scientifically honest and rigorous, the only evidence/causation that has been observed and measured has nothing to do with a Creator. (Forgive all the generalities here.)

I don't know how many different ways I can make the same point. You just don't want to see it. Such willfull ignorance in the face of simple logic fascinates me. Faith and fear of the unknown are such powerful psychological forces for the weak minded...”

“As I said earlier in this post, the positivist model of science is all inclusive. One doesn't decide at face value whether a theory is right or wrong. One judges the merit of a theory based on the accuracy of the predictions it makes that you can measure. Once the predictions cease to be accurate one looks for a way to modify the theory or replace it with one that works better. Much of our modern understanding of the nature of the universe stems from this approach. So whether or not I “believe” in something isn’t the point. The measure of a theory is in its ability to make predictions we can measure.

It is true that you could take a high-level “brain in a pan” view as a theory. In the positivist view one would ask what predictions such a model makes that we can measure. So while the theory does in fact explain a great many things, there aren’t a great number of predictions it makes that we can measure. So it’s not “wrong”, it’s just not very useful.

Risking the flames, I have two problems with intelligent design and its proponents.

First, many of the people that I talk to on this topic spend much of their time claiming that arguments AGAINST evolution are arguments FOR intelligent design. That’s just silly and exposes the real reason why they are arguing in the first place. If they want to get intelligent design past me then they need to do so based on their theory and not on the inaccuracies they propose exist in other theories. Likewise, their arguments FOR intelligent design aren’t arguments AGAINST evolution. They are two theories which should stand on their own, but the intelligent design proponents I know aren’t as interested in either theory as much as they are in the relationship between intelligent design and evolution. I think this is very telling.

Second, I view the “intelligent” part of intelligent design as a “fudge factor”. So in the positivist model I would be looking for predictions that intelligent design makes that I can measure. I am also looking at how useful the theory itself is. The “intelligent” part of intelligent design is basically a “and then a miracle occurs” component that isn’t very compelling to me. I see it as an assumption that is not needed and modified theories of evolution better explain observations. I am not talking about the version Darwin proposed which offers a process far more accelerated than we observe but rather modern versions of his founding theory.

This sort of “fudge factor” is nothing new. As I said in another post in this thread, Albert Einstein believed that the universe was static and that time had no beginning and no end. He introduces the Cosmological Constant as a fudge factor to address the fact that gravity would cause the universe to collapse. So the Cosmological Constant is an inherent “pressure” that matter and energy would exert that would counteract gravity and provide for a static universe that was the paradigm of the time. The Cosmological Constant was not “wrong”. General Relativity explained quite a bit of phenomena that could be seen at the time. It was, however, a major fudge factor and scientists that came after him quickly recognized it as one of the most significant missed opportunities of his time. It in no way diminished the value of his work, and in fact a lot of scientists are revisiting the Cosmological Constant even today.”

“It's pretty simple, really. Sinners go to hell. There's the prediction.”

“I thought we were all sinners going to hell and only those that accepted salvation would be saved.”

“You are quite correct mr. pitts. If you are not saved, you will go to hell, after you die there is no second chance. You will experience pain the likes of which you cannot comprehend, every second, of every minute, of every hour, of every day, for eternity. I highly recommend everyone prepare themselves because one never knows when he may draw his last breath.”

“Perhaps so ...

Sounds a lot like marriage actually.”

“But we have no empirical evidence of a designer. None. You're simply ascribing an anthropomorphic phenomenon (something being designed by intelligence) to a process that is not completely understood by anyone, and saying - "look, it's got to have been designed." That's not scientific, in fact, with a complete lack of evidence of a designer it's the antithesis of science.

Mutt, this it not true. You can scientifically prove the odds of something being designed is greater than the odds of it not being designed, even with statistics. If the Eiffel Tower is standing in the desert, bolted and welded together with metals and measured consistently throughout, with stairs and closed-circuit wiring and lights and an elevator, you can make the case it was not a random event that caused metals and wiring and nuts and bolts to all come together in the form of the Eiffel Tower. You can reason, and show through science, that it was most certainly designed intelligently. We as humans can quite easily design and construct the Eiffel Tower from scratch... but we cannot design and construct new life from scratch. Not even our most brilliant minds. How much more complex is the most simple DNA than the mere Eiffel Tower. You can look at something designed and make a case it was designed without knowing the designer.

pitts®, most intelligent design scientists are evolutionists.”

“"....intelligent design scientists...."”

“Buck, you show an astounding grasp of the scientific method.”

“"I mean, look at what Trailkicker is doing compared to me? I hope to live in the garage of his heavenly mansion."

Mansions???

You mean there will be a ruling class in Heavin'???

Will there be class warfare too?

....and maybe there will be racial hierarchy......a servant class??”

“A ruling class? No, just one ruler, God. We are all equal in heaven. And yes, you will have a home in heaven, and it be in accordance with the treasures you store up in heaven, i.e. your deeds you do that glorify God while you are here on this earth. The treasures you store up in heaven will also dictate what crown you wear while in heaven.”

“We are all equal in heaven, but wear different crowns?

Can you eat them? Do they taste like fried chicken?”

“THE SOUL-WINNER'S CROWN - to people who labored to save souls from the fires of hell. 1 Thessalonians 2:19: "You are our hope, our joy, and the crown we will take pride in when our Lord Jesus Christ comes."

THE CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS - for those who look for and love Christ's return. 2 Timothy 4:8: "Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing."

THE CROWN OF GLORY - for those who faithfully teach and preach God's Word.1 Peter 5:4: "And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away."

THE INCORRUPTIBLE CROWN - for those who "run a good race" in the Christian life. 1 Corinthians 9:25: "And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown."

THE CROWN OF LIFE - for people who endure suffering, knowing there is a better life in the world to come. James 1:12: "Happy is the man that keeps on enduring trial, because on becoming approved he will receive the Crown of Life."

.....and no, they don't taste like fried chicken.
last edited: 8/04/05 3:23:40 PM”

“That still sounds like some are more equal than others.

"And yes, you will have a home in heaven, and it be in accordance with the treasures you store up in heaven..."

It sounds like some will have more than others in accordance with their earthly deeds....not equal.

That is a very human trait, the "I've got mine, Jack" atitude.

"This is what I've earned and it's more than what you've earned and what's mine is mine."

Hell is what some people put others through here on earth.
It varies in degree and cruelness according to the mental sickness of those who dish it out.”

“If it doesn't taste like fried chicken, I don't want it.”

“What one would consider hell on earth pales in comparison to the hell of satan. It might sound like someone has more than another, but one does not. To be quite honest, I will be happy with a pup tent in the grassy fields around heaven, just as long as I can be there, that's all that counts.”

“Trailkicker, you seem like a cheerful fellow.

Let's get drunk and rent some whores.”

“Let's get drunk and rent some whores.

Is that what it takes for you to get some Phaedrus? To rent them?”

“those crowns are just silly. how ridiculous can xtians make their myth before the True Believers realize just how assinine it is?”

“Trailkicker, you seem like a cheerful fellow.

Let's get drunk and rent some whores.

Well, I'll pass on the lady thing but we can have some wine and fried chicken if you like.”

“Is that what it takes for you to get some Phaedrus? To rent them?”
Sarge
2:28:39 PM
8/04/05

Well, who the hell wants to buy one?”

“Well, I'll pass on the lady thing but we can have some wine and fried chicken if you like.”
TrailKicker67
2:35:56 PM
8/04/05

Are you hitting on me? I'm married.”

“those crowns are just silly. how ridiculous can xtians make their myth before the True Believers realize just how assinine it is?”

You will find out how silly it ISN'T when you are standing on the carpet before the man facing the judgement of fire.”

“Yawn - *your* god doesn't exist.”

“Me in heaven:

”

“Are you hitting on me? I'm married.”

Not at all, I'm married as well. We can still sit down and enjoy fried chicken and wine as friends, can't we?”