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“I went for a hike near the Buffalo River this weekend.
The River was perfect for canoeing, but not many canoes. I talked to the dude at the BOC and he said twenty years ago he would have been out of canoes and wishing for more.
He said America has gotten soft. I told him he is competing against the intenet and cable. Folks don't need to leave their houses to have fun.
What do you think?”
“I agree. My whole family thinks I'm nuts for going out to "the woods" to have fun. Bunch of sissies!”
“join us on the river in may, you are most welcome.”
“I dunno, stikky seems to carry his boat a lot...maybe I'm a sissy, but I prefer to paddle mine...”
“I'm going on my annual float next weekend. Carver to Gilbert, 36 miles in 3 1/2 days. I'm GEEKED! Anybody down that way, look us up...
“Enjoy. That's the most gorgeous river float I've done.”
“It's pretty sweet.
The forecast is for rain every day.
“LNT - be a good steward of the river and don't make fire rings on its gravel and sand bars or leave charcoal and ash scattered about.”
I guess I always thought of good practice being to make a fire where it would be swept away eventually. On the Gulf Islands National Seashore for example, the rule is to build the fire below high tide mark.
By my way of thinking, I would suppose the same would hold true with river camping.
But I agree with the business of fire rings and I agree that the ashes should be buried or scattered.
Mozark did the best job I have ever seen with a fire on the BRT one winter. He cut out the sod, we had a fire and then cleaned out the pit and replaced the sod.”
“How about just not have a fire and enjoy the natural beauty of the river at night? I admit in my youth, I have started many a fire on the banks of Ozark rivers. But I grew up out of bonfires and alcoholic foolishness A LONG TIME AGO. Now I only plan trips on weekdays to avoid the drinkers. Actually it's hard to think of anything more disrespectful to nature than the typical weekend floating "nature loving" partiers. That whole culture is disgusting.”
“I agree Mutt. Nature is beautiful on it's own. The whole "party" atmosphere degrades that. Might as well stay home. I enjoy the natural sounds and the illumination of the stars. It's become about engorging yourself on the food and drinking these days.”
“I wouldn't make the quantum leap that all with bonfires are partiers, but I understand how you draw the correlation.
I am speaking strictly of having a nice campfire. Leave alcohol completely out of the equation and where would you build the fire?
My thinking is that if it is in a place that will flood (or water will rise above it frequently), that is better than having one up where water rarely reaches...ala high tide mark.
I am more curious how LNT principles would approach this subject.”
“You are correct chili - the river will eventually flush your waste away like a toilet.”
“I feel the same way. Its defining characteristic is that it's an excuse to drink and party. And like any drunken gathering, it's loud and trashy and hard on nature.”
“Mutt, you have inspired me and I will start a new tradition on this float. After drunkenly enjoying my fire-ringed bonfire all night, the next morning, I will take the rocks from the fire ring and arrange them on the beach to say "Mutt is a pompous D-bag"
I will then gorge myself on strawberry pop-tarts(with icing of coarse!)and proceed with the day's activities(mostly drinking beer and yelling YEE-HAW)”
Believe me, I have no doubt. But are you going to have a fire? Are you going to leave behind fire-blackened rocks and ash and charcoal on the beach? Are you going to do stupid things like melt beer cans or burn trash in your fire? I'll be magnanimous and ASSume you don't litter...”
“it's an excuse to drink and party
who needs an excuse?”
“Just because you have a fire does not mean you trash the place...the two are not synonymous..”
“True, Sunni. It's hard not to discuss this behavior in generalities, though, because it is the emergent mass behavior and culture that is such an affront to nature.”
“A campfire is nice, but so often it becomes about the marshmallows and not the warmth.”
“You can quote me on that. That is confusion level there.”
“As usual, this thread becomes about something else.
My thoughts centered on "where IS the best place for a campfire if you are going to have one?".
Leave out the drinking; don't go to Trail Days if it affronts your sensibilities; and if TT is causing you some heart burn, leave.
But, having said that, I am asking Mutt where the "proper" place for the fire would be.”
“Only Mutt approved areas will do”
“In my mind, LNT is using a fire ring that's already there.
But in my mind, LNT for those silly moderns with a guilty conscience for all the sins of all past generations who celebrate all the places where aborigines didn't practice LNT.”
“Chili, I already answered you: NO FIRE. It's just not necessary (barring emergencies), and it would go (along with no booze) a long way to keep the rivers in a more pristine state. But judging by strat's hostility, respecting nature is obviously too much to ask from the party crowd.”
“Well, I was thinking you had some LNT policy on this. I didn't think LNT said "no fires" but maybe it does, that is what I was wanting to know.”
“I respect nature just fine, mutt. I DON'T respect your insulting tone and arrogantly lecturing me how to spend my time and what I'm allowed to do. I think you're judgmental attitude and stereotyping are just as bad as someone leaving a fire ring on the beach. I guess it makes you feel better about yourself to go around thinking you are so much better than everyone else...but you're not. People like you should stay in town with all the civilized, enlightened people.
Toejam, I agree...if there's a fire ring established, darn right I'm gonna use it. If not, I just make afire on the gravel and disperse it when I leave.”
“If you really want LNT, then don't go camping. Camping, afterall, isn't necessary.”
“I respect nature just fine, mutt.
No. Your actions speak louder than your words. You are the loud drunken partier type that I try to avoid. But I'm sure you'll have a fine time on your excuse to go on a bender.”
“yep dayhiker..camping and backpacking especially in large groups is bad bad bad on the environment..afterall, it should stay as pristine and new and untouched as when it was first created. Nature is only for us to enjoy from afar.”
“when i hike i choose not to breath...i don't want to add extra carbon dioxide to the air”
“on one hand i want to call mutt's comments pompous and insulting cause i know he's mature enough not to tattle on me to the mods, on the other, there are other posters on here that aren't that mature and would LOVE to tattle even if it's not directed at them
oh crap, now i've insulted two of them...i'll be surely banned”
“Tru dat. And beating down a trail isn't eco friendly.
Somewhere there is an "acceptable line". I recognize the line isn't absolute but clearly some things are just plain stupid.
What the proper "answer" is for a fire seems to be a little hazy.”
“Knowing the Buffalo River building a fire on a sand or gravel bar the evidence might last a day or 3 months. Also knowing the horse packing crowd that goes there they would not care as they ride along chucking beer cans...both of which get washed away the first good rain they get...just my observation.”
“I keep wondering what kind of psychic Mutt is to pass judgement on people he hasn't even come close to meeting.
Having that kind of power must be an awesome thing.”
“Also knowing the horse packing crowd that goes there they would not care as they ride along chucking beer cans...both of which get washed away the first good rain they get...just my observation.
No, not just your observation. I also am familiar with the equestrian culture.
Riders, hunters, shooters, wheelers, backpackers, whatever - it's the same duality, self similar across activity. There is the respectful minority who is faithful to the activity as an end in itself, and the crass majority who use it as a means to some lesser end.
The latter congregate here.”
“So what's makes you so holy? You have never hiked with me so you know not what my backcountry ethics are.”
“Well, I guess the idea of "backcountry ethics" is open to debate.
Sort of like the difference in "Baptists" and "Methodists".
Or, in a broader sense, whether atheists are "worse" than "bible thumpers".
Depends on who is looking and how they look at it.
To each his own.
last edited: 5/17/11 8:03:04 PM”
“Aww Chili, don't try to sound reasonable...you're just a loud drunken partier type that Mutt avoids”
“the funny part about all of this is that in none of mutt's posts did he say that everyone that drinks also trashes nature...people just infered that...i would assume that mutt realizes that it is possible to have a couple drinks with out disturbing nature
just like i can go to a bar and have a couple drinks with out starting a brawl and p!ssing on the bathroom floor”
“It's hard not to discuss this behavior in generalities, though, because it is the emergent mass behavior and culture that is such an affront to nature.”
I dont know Thrifty..this might cover it. but it started out with Mutt telling Strat not to trash the place...which is a pretty big inferrence.”
“thank you! It's like soomeone you've never met tells you they're going to Home Depot and you respond "Well I hope you don't smoke crack while driving on the freeway, and running red lights is wrong also. People who shop at Home Depot shouldn't be allowed to drive"
Who does that?
Ok, I'm over it”
“So how did your drunken float trip go, stratdood?”
“He probably pissed in the water. Should we shoot him now or wait until later?”
“Actually p1ssing on the gravel bars is a great example of how the partiers are hard on the rivers. One should always walk back to the riparian zone, which quite effectively mitigates bodily waste.”
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