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“I wonder how many people voted Republican in a reactionary manner, not so much 'for' Bush as 'against' Gore."
Gore didn't have a prayer in this neighborhood so I wrote in Nader. Georgia law makes getting on the ballot nearly impossible for a third party candidate
i wonder how many independants pick between GORE AND NADER! LMAOOOoOOoOOoOOOOOoOOooOOoOOOOoooooooO! ! ! ! ! ! !
omg, don't EVER claim to be independant again...EVER! NEVER EVER EVER NEVER NEVER LIVER! ! !
bacpac, salute you, with all due respect given to a true patriot i look up to you for your service and sacrifice given to the country you love. may God bless you and keep you.
people often take a wet sceince of humor for being beligerant. people sometimes take me that way. i like the new "kinder , gentler" bacpac . ya'll just realize he's just a guy with an opinion. it's no big deal. i can hike with anyone and be their freind. especially if i have something so powerfull as the love of the outdoors in common. i don't have to agree with them on every thing. i like all the people i disagree with on here.
like stalker said, nothing on here's gonna change anything. nobodies gonna change their minds. it's just interesting to discuss and pretend we got all the answers. it's just a form of expression. we all believe in something. some people believe just to say the believe. some just think they're right. it's all good with me. i consider all of you friends, otherwise i wouldn't discuss it with you.
we're all on the same team. sometime the coach calls a play you don't like, but you run the play the best you can, cuz that's what the coach said, and thats what the rest of the team is doing.
backpacking people rule!”
“I Am independant, Brainiac. I voted for Bush The Previous against Dukakis, Clinton the first time ariund, then Perot. I voted for McCain in the last presidential primary and would've voted for him in the general election if he had been nominated. I'll bet you've voted a straight Republican ticket since Reagan sold Borax!
Now tell me again how Bush I and McCain aren't REALLY Republicans, LOLOLOL
Gore and Nader were the lesser EVILs. You guys claim to know all about EVIL... LOLOL I guess NOT. You voted for BUSH last time, right? LOLOL”
“Sorry, Nowslimmer. Bacpac has demonstrated time and again that he enjoys being cruel. That makes him a waste of space as far as I'm concerned. Period.”
“I get labeled with being mean, angry, cruel, dishonorable, because people disagree with my opinion.
It is clear from the responces to my comments who is really mean, angry, cruel and dishonorable.”
This ain't Viet Nam
“Desert Storm pretty well proved that there won't ever be a Viet Nam again. (Well, I shouldn't say that, Clinton had his "Viet Nam")I have worked with vets on various jobs, and studied the war, even watched the Discovery channel, and it gets pretty obvious that politicians ran the war in Viet Nam.
Desert Storm was turned over to the Generals, who know how to wage a war. I am pretty certain that if and when the decision is made, GWB will turn the general's loose and let them properly wage the war, with every weapon at their disposal, and bring as many of our boys home as possible.
These generals are not interested in a fair fight. They are going to go in there, intending to annililate the enemy, save as many US soldiers as possible, and get it over with as fast as possible. My hat is off to them.”
I have not heard any more about your lung. I hope everything is healing OK and that being up at 4 AM EST was nothing more serious than a bathroom trip.”
“"Si vis pacem, para bellum."
“There ya go, BP! Sweetness and Light as always!
I seem to have gotten on some kind of farmer's schedule, NS. I think it's because the folks at the hospital kept waking me up at 3 AM to give me sleeping medication.”
“It does make a difference to discuss political views on any forum, as that is one of the ways we form opinions in the USA...by talking with one another.
Baume, that sounded, (to me), like a bit of naivete to say that if all the energy spent protesting the war in Viet Nam would have been used in support of the war it would have been over sooner. The war in Viet Nam, which really wasn't a "war" but a "police action", was not a well prosecuted war. No matter how many people would have gone over, it wouldn't have made a difference. We weren't there to "win a war". I base what I say about this from living through the times and having many friends who served in the armed forces at the time.
Who do you think led the "Peace March" down the main street of my hometown? Veterans of WW2, Korea, and Viet Nam, who are proud of their service to our country, and who were not disrespected by anyone at this march. There are a wide range of types of people and views in a "peace march".
BTW, Bacpac is not the only one on this site who has served our country in the military.”
“Slim, bacpac has demonstrated time and again his penchant for shock and mean-spiritedness. I will admit that he has recently written some uncharacteristically civil posts, along, of course, with his usual schlock. If you want to give him a hug, that's fine with me. For the rest of us that recognize him for the insufferable @ss that he is, if you want to enter us in your book at a very low level, that's fine too.
Maybe I'll see ya on the trail again soon. :-)”
“Some respect should be a given, while the rest should be earned.
I will give bacpac, or anyone else that served our country respect and thanks for their service.
But he has not earned my respect as a person, although sometimes he
does crack me up, (Tilt - notice I didn't say anything about being funny God forbid if I find humor here).
One more note on bacpac - At Tc2, everyone was begging Matt to bring him back. (I got the impression that he was banned, I don't know if that was the case or not) I believe it's a love hate thing. People love to hate him. He used to really piss me off, and I realized that nothing on here is worth getting upset about. Life is too short. Now I just take him with a grain of salt.”
“No, he wasn't banned --- not at all. He posted something particularly smarmy; Matt deleted it, then bacpac left (making a big show of his supposed exit).
It really was an outstanding bit of filth, though. I don't recall ANYone breathing a word about the First Amendment at the time.”
“Not to stir up the pot anymore than is necessary. But the protestors at at the Marine base were chanting "Soldiers are criminals". Getting into the faces of the wives who were standing up for their husband and saying "if your husbands are soldiers then they are criminals". Slandering the very people who help ensure our freedoms. Protect our borders, ensure our safety. And all for a couple thousand dollars a month. For me that attitude is silly and stupid. Our Military does not make policy. If these masters of intelligence want to change policy then I would think they would be protesting at a government agency or building. Changing policy is good if it is for the better. Dishonoring the men and women who protect us is a shame. And shame on us for thinking that it is ok to do it.”
“now that's funny, bacpac throwing a baby fit and leaving the playground.”
“Stratdewd, peace at all costs doesn't make sense? What would you say to Ghandi?”
WLD hits the nail on the head
“All these people who were Vietnam protestors back in the 60's now say "We were against the war, not against the soldiers". What a crock. Who were all those people at the airports spitting on our soldiers as they returned and calling them baby killers. If you are at a Rally where protesters are shouting such vile comments and you do nothing to stop them, then in my book they are speaking for you and you should be viewed in the same light as them.”
“Stratdewd, peace at all costs doesn't make sense? What would you say to Ghandi?"
i'd say God bless you for your message to the world. i'd say blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. then i'd say that GOd put in us a yerning to be free and very strong survival instinct. and most of the world would be speaking German or Japanese if we never fought back againt tyranny and oppresion. i'd say there wouldn't be a USA without war and slavery would still be the law were it not for conflict.
let's have a protest march to get hussein to disarm....”
Hyway, and WLD
“Wld, I couldn't agree with your last post more. It doesn't help the cause of peace to disrespect anyone, nor should we confuse those who are charged with carrying out policy with those who make policy.
Hyway, there were far more protests against Viet Nam that did not show disrespect to the military than what you seem willing to acknowledge. One of my points is that there is a wide range of reasons why people are protesting this pre-emptive war.
I do agree that there are some ignorant fools on both sides of this argument. I do agree that there are, (and were), some who were supposedly in the "peace movement" who were only there to sabotage the well-meaning people who are against the war.”
“That is too bad about protestors yelling at the wives of service men about their husband's being criminals. As if they don't have enough pain to endure. What course of action can a military person take, if they do no want to fight a war? I'm asking that sincerely. I don't know what the "rules" are. I'm wondering this, because, while I do not consider these men (and women) to be criminals, I would assume they can make some sort of choice. There may be reprucussions, but I'd think they could choose.
It makes me think about all the men in Hitler's military that claimed they were "only following orders." AGAIN, I'M NOT COMPARING OUR CURRENT MILITARY TO HITLER'S MEN OR CLAIMING THEY WILL COMMIT ANY SUCH ATROCITIES. I'm just wondering.”
“Characterizing everyone who opposes this war with Iraq as the same as those who spit on the military is like saying everyone who supports the war is an un-thinking ditto-head, just because there are some ditto-heads.”
“what am i, chopped livah?
hello[taptaptap]..is this thing on?”
“Strat, how 'bout we have a march to get the US to disarm. Afterall, we obviously have a much more powerful and much more vast arsenal then Saddam.”
“Also, Stat, I would agree there is a time to fight back. But, isn't it possible to stand up in a non-violent way (ala Ghandi, etc.).”
“I am, at this point, still opposed to a war in Iraq. However, I have a deep respect for everyone who does or has served our country.
I would just say for those who are so eager that we should go to war..."Think about the costs associated with the action". Any one casualty will a tremendous impact on some families life.
I guess that reason alone will cause me to always explore any alternative to war.”
“Amen Chili! Hey, Chili, you're a lawyer right?! Do you know, is there any legal reprucussion to a soldier if he chooses not to fight in a war or follow orders he considers to be wrong in some heinous way in a war? Any past or current military personnel on the board, do you know? It's a serious question people.”
“So maybe the soldiers just wanted to "earn their money for college" and it backfired. They had no clue they were training to possibly fight a war when they enlisted??
It's just like when the telemarketers call and offer you that weeklong, free trip to Orlando. Sure, you'll see Disneyland, but you will be seeing a couple timeshares, too, and the big gorillas trying to sell you one. There's always a catch when it seems too good to be true.
The soldiers are a pawn for the government's wishes. And, as of yet, no one has been drafted, have they? That's when we'll get into some really torn soldiers about purposes of this war and this country. And, at least when it comes to a draft, there historically have been choices other serving. I've read of dams being built and hospitals renovated by conscientious objectors during times of war.
But, so you can all rest better, I would never say anything but "thanks" to a soldier to his/her face. And I'd mean it.”
“That was a beautiful post, Chili. I think that we have time to weigh our options before we begin dropping bombs. IMO, only.”
“dunaden, I think a peace movement is and should always be a part of societies counter balance to the "drop the bomb and get it over with crowd". My point is that if the leadership of the movement spits on soldiers and/or calls 18 yo girls the wives of criminals, or allows it to occur without speaking out against it then the people who follow that leadership state their agreement with such actions by their silence.
If you are trying to tell me that the 60's peace movement didn't trash our soldiers, then you are seriously deluded. Or maybe I missed all those marches that praised our boys in uniform.”
“You don't always have to agree with something to appreciate the effort put forth.
I thank you, bacpac, and others on here who have served. I'm sorry I don't know who all of you are.”
“UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) provides that illegal orders essentially need not be obeyed.
The real tricky question is what constitutes an illegal order. An example would be if a superior gave an order "to execute POW's",,although this is an extreme example, it is an order that is clearly illegal in violating the Geneva Convention as well as violating several other provisions of the UCMJ. There would be no penalty for refusing to obey this order.
However, just feeling the order is wrong or heinous is not necessarily a defense.
This type issue, newgirl, is always a JAG Officers nightmare.”
“Dang! Does no one on this frickin' site have an answer for me or are you all ignoring me?”
“"... allows it to occur without speaking out against it then the people who follow that leadership state their agreement with such actions by their silence." By hyway...
That same idea is why people are protesting a potential war. It seems we all have the same arguments for various aspects of this potential war, it just varies whether they're pro or con.”
“Oh! Sorry Chili. Posting at the same time there. Hmmm, so can a soldier say that he will not fight before he has even gone to battle? If he does, what will the legal action against him be?”
“Hyway, nobody ever stopped anyone from organizing a march to say thankyou to the soldiers of Viet Nam. Why didn't you organize one? As I recall, there was a march, many years after the war, that was in appreciation for their service.
The people who spit on soldiers and accosted their wives are not the leaders of the peace movement, no matter how badly you want them to be characterized that way.
What do you say to the WW2, Korea, and Viet Nam vets who march against this war and speak out at public rallies against it?”
“Hyway, I'm sure you would not like to get painted with the same broad brush stroke you are attempting to use. Yes, there were some protesters during the Viet Nam era who were wrong in their actions, just as there are some now. This does NOT constitute the majority of the peace movement.”
“"can a soldier say that he will not fight before he has even gone to battle?"
Yes, newgirl, he or she could say that. It would be one of the last things he or she could say before they went to Ft. Leavenworth, however.
Failure to obey a lawful order is a serious offense in the military and if the failure to follow orders was the refusal to deploy against an enemy, it could be deemed as desertion.
Clearly, any lawful order must be obeyed.”
“who wants to march againt hussein?”
“This summer in the town where I attended both grade school and junior high, a celebration is being held to honor those from this area of Iowa who fought in the Civil War. There is always appreciation for soldier's efforts. And this is a 100 year celebration of the original event.
The Grand Celebration”
“Newgirl, you make your major decision before enlisting. That is why many waited until the Viet Nam war was over before enlisting.”
“Thanks Chili. I get it now. So, since WWII laws have been put in place that allow a soldier, officer, etc. to refuse to follow certain orders during war (such as killing POW's, etc.) and have no legal action taken against them. However, refusing to fight before the war has begun, is basically against one's military oath (is oath an accurate word) and can be legally punished.
(Do you see how I'm a genius? LOL!)”
“Strat, I repeat, how about we march for the US to disarm? How 'bout we march for everyone to disarm? How 'bout we have a march in favor of human beings acting as human beings to one another?”
“newgirl, these Articles apply to the situation you describe:
885. ART. 85. DESERTION
(a) Any member of the armed forces who--
(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom permanently;
(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or
(3) without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another on of the armed forces without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated, or enters any foreign armed service except when authorized by the United States; is guilty of desertion.
(b) Any commissioned officer of the armed forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away therefrom permanently is guilty of desertion.
(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.
890. ART. 90. ASSAULTING OR WILLFULLY DISOBEYING SUPERIOR COMMISSIONED OFFICER.
Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) strikes his superior commissioned officer or draws or lifts up any weapon or offers any violence against him while he is in the execution of his officer; or
(2) willfully disobeys a lawful command of his superior commissioned officer; shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, and if the offense is committed at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.
892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;
(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or
(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
894. ART. 94. MUTINY OR SEDITION
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;
(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;
(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition.
(b) A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.
899. ART. 99. MISBEHAVIOR BEFORE THE ENEMY
Any person subject to this chapter who before or in the presence of the enemy--
(1) runs away;
(2) shamefully abandons, surrenders, or delivers up any command, unit, place, or military property which it is his duty to defend;
(3) through disobedience, neglect, or intentional misconduct endangers the safety of any such command, unit, place, or military property;
(4) casts away his arms or ammunition;
(5) is guilty of cowardly conduct;
(6) quits his place of duty to plunder or pillage;
(7) causes false alarms in any command, unit, or place under control of the armed forces;
(8) willfully fails to do his utmost to encounter, engage, capture, or destroy any enemy troops, combatants, vessels, aircraft, or any other thing, which it is his duty so to encounter, engage, capture, or destroy; or
(9) does not afford all practicable relief and assistance to any troops, combatants, vessels, or aircraft of the armed forces belonging to the United States or their allies when engaged in battle; shall be punished by death or such punishment as a court-martial may direct.
934. ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE
Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, ll conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.”
“HUSSEIN MUST DISARM!
HUSSEIN MUST DISARM!
come on everybody!
HUSSEIN MUST DISARM!
If a soldier does not want to be involved in combat situations, then hopefully when he or she enlisted they went to an assignement that was non-combative. However, if he or she is a grunt, (standard soldier) and is in the infantry. It might be pretty hard on them if they refuse to fight. Not only would it put great risk on their own lives, but on the lives of their fellow soldiers. If they were not willing to fight. Hopefully they did not join the military, or if they did, they were washed out or assigned a non-combatant role.
Just for the record, I personally am not for this war or any war for that matter. This war will just give us another foreign dependant. But I am a supporter for our troops, regardless the branch. I do believe though since Sept 11, to think we the American people do not have enemies in this world is to be in denial.”
“HUSSEIN MUST DISARM!”
“Good post WLD.”
“lol arty! we could march on washington....i bet we'd make the news....”
“The USA does, indeed, have enemies. I would like it if we tried to avoid creating more of them.”
“If we could only figure out how to get along on this planet, our potential would be endless.”
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