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“...an unjust war that the American public did not stand behind....
Is that a direct quote? The last poll I saw showed that most Americans supported this war.
Inflammatory journalism, if you ask me.”
“Thank you Lizs for posting that
"If war does come, he will support the troops and the president 100%. However, he said he would pray for peace now."
the man spoke the words that i feel.
“In what is certainly one of the worst crises in the alliance's
54-year history, NATO this week refused to provide Turkey with
defensive support against possible aggression from Iraq, requested
under Article 4 of the 1949 Washington Treaty. France, Germany and
Belgium joined to block any preparations for the defense of Turkey,
arguing that such action would send Iraq the "improper signal" that
war is imminent and unavoidable. Responding to accusations that
the U.S. desire to "get Saddam Hussein" is breaking NATO apart,
Secretary of State Colin Powell responded, "Who is breaking up
the alliance? Not the United States. The alliance is breaking
itself up because it will not meet its responsibilities."
Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Vice Adm. Lowell
E. Jacoby, described the disconnect of the NATO disagreement
with reality: "I expect him [Saddam] to preemptively attack
the Kurds in the north, conduct missile and terrorist attacks
against Israel and U.S. regional or worldwide interests [which
would include Turkey] -- perhaps using WMD and the regime's links
to al-Qa'ida. ...Saddam is likely to employ a scorched-earth
strategy. ... We should expect him to use WMD on his own people."”
“Ohhh...I am so angry!!”
“bacpac, are you holding your breath and typing at the same time because your so angry?
“lmfao bacpac! you inflamer you!”
“Far be it from my to speak off the cuff of an interview. Let's see... looking at my notes.
He said he had a son in Vietnam and a son in Germany. "I know what it's like to serve and not have a country behind you."
he said, not direct quote, I know what it's like to come home from an unjust war (at the time referring to his son and Vietnam) "To this day, he won't talk to me about it. War is hell."
"I'm not here as a protester. I am here as an individual that supports our troops if and when they get sent. I hope they don't have to go to Iraq. I hope and pray it can be settled without military conflict. I don't know that it can, but I pray for that."
"Nobody has questioned my loyalty or patriotism"
"In this life we've all got to learn to live together with out political views. It makes for a better country and better community."
"Whatever happens, it needs to be purposeful. I will support the boys if they go, and the president. But let's all say a prayer for peace."
SOOOOOOOOOOO... make your own conclusions. To me, personally, it sounds a lot like he's saying he thinks there's no value in any upcoming war with Iraq. BUT... I'll let the readers draw their own conclusion. I'm sure you, bacpac, will point out he does not say this would be an "unjust" war. In which case>> why does he not want it to happen????”
“cuz war is bad. i don't want to go to war. i don't like war. i don't my 3 boys goin to war. but sometimes you have no choice. we ARE at war already and we have been since 9-13-01. 9-11 was an act of war. i don't care if hussein so much as gave them a toothpick, that's all the connection necessary for my concience.
maybe hussein will back down. that'd be a win-win...but its the only peacefull solution available.”
“...To me, personally, it sounds a lot like he's saying he thinks there's no value in any upcoming war with Iraq...
Obviously you did inject your personal opinion.”
“I say that to you, yes. But using quotes, I will let the reader draw his or her own conclusion. Much as you drew yours.”
to the peaceniks....
“hey peaceniks, if you are so concerned about getting bush a message, write him a letter. it will be just as effective. all these marches do is make the folks in the services feel alienated. bush is only one person so you may not even get writers cramp. it will only take a couple of minutes versus spending a complete day trying to get in and out of a rally. maybe you could spend the rest of the day fixing up care packages for the folks in the military. it will be cheaper, no transportation or meal costs.
korea is not as big a threat as iraq will be if iraq continues to develop its weapons programs. war is a necessary evil at times.
if your wondering where my feelings on this come from, read on.
i'm not a war monger. i wish sadam could be dealt with peacefully, but it won't happen. i have a 16 year old son that would most likely fall in line for a draft if it were enacted. in my immediate family, parents and siblings, there is well over 60 years of active duty and still counting. this doesn't include the 17 years (and counting) of service aquired by inlaws. three vetrans. one stationed in turkey at this time (his wife is active duty and stationed there also). i'm almost ashamed to say none of this service is mine. but i am damned proud of them for every day they have served.
if you want to march, why don't you march in support of the folks in the service. the folks that insure that you will continue to be able to march freely. believe me, they will get the message. they are our insurance policy, and have been more effective than any other in all of history.
i worry about losing loved ones if we go to war. i also realize that war and loss are necessary at times to insure the overall good/health of the world. don't be so afraid that you become selfish.”
“In a huge wave of demonstrations not seen since the Vietnam War, more than six million peace protesters took to the streets in 600 towns and cities from Cape Town to Chicago Saturday.”
“Walking in a Peace March is good exercise.”
“Its easy to stand outside for a couple hours and chant some catchy slogans and wave a " no war" sign. It allows particapants the chance to feel as though they have done something but in actuallity done nothing. The cause is unimportant, people will flock to any giant gathering, cause they feel like they are "part of something", just for a chance tp be on TV and to feel important when they tell their grandchildren in hushed serious tones " you know your grandpa was a protester".
I am all for folks protesting whatever the heck they please.
But does it solve anything? I doubt it. Is GW now all teary eyed and ready to hug Saddam? Has Al-qaeda seen the error if its ways? Will this war be stopped because of a few hour protest? I seriously doubt it.
To stop folks who are h@ll bent on war you need more than signs and slogans.”
“To stop folks who are h@ll bent on war you need more than signs and slogans."
yeah sometimes you just have to shoot them :}”
“I agree with birch, that demonstrations really don't change anything. It's like a funeral, it's for those that attend.
I believe that most people, including those in power, view demonstrations as a bunch of extremists. In a few cases, demonstrations may have brought attention to an otherwise unknown problem. But this issue has been and will continue to be in the media spot.
A more effective approach would be a letter writing campaign. It would be interesting to know the % of those demonstrating who vote.
Everyone has an option, right, wrong or otherwise. Who's right, Who's wrong, Who's to say?
Fact is, most folks have their minds made up and anything you say on TT won't change that.
So don't get your panties in a wad people. But it is pretty funny watching those that do.”
“Just out of the infantry this morning,
I had to pay my dues across the sea,
But no one back in boot camp ever warned me,
What the readjustment blues would do to me.
"Welcome to Havannah", said the pilot,
"We must have made a wrong turn on the way."
"Let's buy some cigars and keep it quiet,
If they don't know we're here we'll get away."
Just as I had realized he was joking,
I saw we were in Washington D.C.,
'Cause there was all the patriotic buildings.
Just like I'd seen them on T.V.
It must have been a holiday,
'cause there was this parade.
People carried signs I couldn't read that they had made.
'Till I got closer and my heart fell to my socks;
There was a battle raging and
The air was filled with teargas and rocks.
There was the flag I'd fought against so often,
The one I fought for hanging upside down,
The wind was blowing hard, the dirt was flying,
It made the city sky look dark and brown.
I saw a girl, she could have been my sister,
Except her hair was long and in her face,
She explained this was a demonstration,
Against the war and for the human race.
Now I've seen a lot of strange things in my travels,
Cannibals and aliens galore,
But I never thought I'd see so many people
Yelling, "We don't want your #&%!$ing war!"
The troops all had on uniforms
Just like the one I'd worn,
But they were all domestic and my duty chose war.
They carried guns just like the ones across the sea,
Except this time I was the citizen
And they were pointing their guns at me,
Yes, I was just a citizen and
I was walking down the street,
And it was just then that the Readjustment Blues
Got through to me.
Words & Music by Bill Danoff
I'm wondering what Nightstalker would say right about now. He was a Captain in the Infantry and Special Ops in Viet Nam, two tours. He dropped off the backpacking boards a couple of years ago.”
“I don't think "funny" is a word he would use.”
“That's a good one, Tilt.
With the threat of war comes thoughts of death, so I found this poem to be interesting this morning: Poem: "Obituaries," by Billy Collins from Nine Horses (Random House).
Have a good day. I'm off to Sunday School to hear more about great hopes.”
Sorry, I goofed on a copy.
“I always enjoy The Writer's Almanac. I'll be certain to save that link --- right up there with the Astro Pic O' the Day, <G>
who has fallen in the night,
who has left a shape of air walking in their place.
“First place, I didn't say war was funny. Second I don't give a darn what Nightstalker would say.
And yes it is real Funny to read all the name calling and slams whatever the tread, including this one. This tread is a joke, like most on TT. People with too much time and too little knowledge.”
“stakler, what makes this thread a joke?
the fact that you disagree with how other people feel?
if its is a joke why do you keep coming back to it?
“So it's much better to get all worked up and pissed off over something that your not going to change (here on TT anyway or standing holding a sign).
Quoting poems - now that's really going to make a difference. Bush is going to log on to TT read that and run to the UN for a group hug.
Reality check people.”
“It sounds like you're the person who needs to chill out.”
“I must be worse than I thought at writing:
Here goes again, this time I will go slow.
It's not the content, the subject, the issue.....it's the fact that everyone gets pissed off, and starts bashing each other and for what?
That's funny, that makes this thread a joke, coupled with the fact it doesn't matter, nothing said here will change anything, expect maybe your blood pressure. So it's not worth getting upset about. Nothing on TT is worth getting angry over. But when you do, I'll be laughing.”
“Somewhere it must have been written "World rule = U.S. rule." Or vice versa...
Where did that come from? The Bible? I thought it said you aren't supposed to covet what isn't yours.
Who says the U.S. is right in our wants, desires and policies? No one. Look at the way we treated our Native Americans... That was stellar. Based on the way the U.S. acts today, it would only seem fair that some European or Middle Eastern country should have come in here and whomped our asses, calling us to task for that, for broken promises and treaties... horrible treatment of the original people of our land... and the plan to place them in what amounted to prison camps for them.
Now, we can't stop at our U.S. borders. Everyone must abide by what the U.S. wants... and needs. I think a lot of people disagree with that philosophy.
There's this thought... a flawed thought... that the U.S. must be there to keep world order.
It's a good thing the U.S. is not the Starship Enterprise. We would have been booted from the galaxy years ago for interfering with native lands on a regular basis, for screwing up their natural development.
While the U.S. is a great place to live, the U.S is NOT God Almighty.”
“Damn liz have you been talking to Mrs. Stalker, that's scary I thought that was reading her thread.
I think it's our lifestyles that's the driver.
If we were not so dependent on oil, do you think we would even be having this talk?”
“Baume66 brings up a very important point. No matter how you feel about Bush's tactics, or what they have to do, PLEASE PLEASE please, support the service people. They are doing their job.
My Dad is a vietnam vet and the reception he got when he came home was devistating. He not only suffered while there, terribly, but also when he came back to his country. Wouldn't it be awful to dream of coming home, only to find that your countrymen hate you for having done your job?
My dad was a medivac helicopter pilot and I'm very proud of him. My brother is a medivac helicopter pilot now.
If you know anyone who serves, let them know you appreciate them, and the job they do, even when they don't want to, and even if you don't agree with it.”
“I disagree that people don't make a difference by marching in the streets, or speaking their mind on forums such as this. Freedom of speech and assembly are rights that need to be exercised from time to time. A citizen should also make her/his voice heard by, number ONE, voting, number two, writing to your elected representatives, and then marrching in protest, if you so desire. Anyone who says that peace protests are ineffective, wasn't around during the Viet Nam police action. There were many peace marches and it made many other people think about what the US was doing in Viet Nam. Public support for the war was so eroded that the government could not justify continuing.”
“BTW, approximately 1,300 people marched in my hometown. From the people I talked to, there was a wide range of opinion as to why they were against this war. Some people marched solely because it made bad economic sense. Many were there for moral reasons. ("Who Would Jesus Bomb?") Of the people I talked to, most were politically opposed to this pre-emptive kind of war.
This is all anecdotal reporting, so take it as you will.”
“I usually do not get involved in these type of threads. I have several loved ones in Kuwait right now. And they all have told me at one time or another. Yes, they know they obey the orders of the President and will. But they fight for the people of the U.S.. Their biggest fear, is not to have the support of the American people behind them. Because in their minds, the American people are their Dads, Mom's, Grand Parents, Uncles & Aunts, etc.
I believe we all have the right to protest whatever we want too. And they know this as well. However, to protest at Military Bases is disrespectful. And that is the perspective of our troops.
Many members of my family were at the bases standing up against the protestors. Not to prohibit their right to protest, but to show support for our children in Kuwait (they saw this too). I was also told that many of these so called protestors in CA were nothing more than a bunch of people who really did not have any interest in peace, but it was something to do, a fad. Others having need of a "cause" in their lives came out, still others had a honest concern for peace. And then there were others who were just loud mouth people chanting slogans and waving signs. When the cameras rolled. While the wives (way out numbered and mostly women) Stood toe to toe with the protestors. And held them at bay. Not because they want thier spouse in a war. But if their spouses are in combat. They want them focused on their job, so they can come home safe and sound. No one likes to fight, but if we do, then let's either do it up right, or not at all.”
“I support our people "in the trenches" but I do not support Bush's war. This might be a difficult concept for some of those soldiers to grasp. What's the average age of those folks? It can't be more than 20.
I'm thinking that pro-Conservative, pro-Repubublican, pro-Bush, pro-war sentiments could also be seen as the flipside of the same 'fad' WLD refers to.
I wonder how many people voted Republican in a reactionary manner, not so much 'for' Bush as 'against' Gore.”
Only 6 million people...
“On an earlier post, I said there might have been 10 million people globally, that protested against a war with Iraq. Just heard on the news that it was about 6 million people....that leaves 4.4 billion people for the war, or couldn't care less.”
“Face it. It's Vietnam all over again... I guess now we'll experience firsthand the riots and things that happened with that war. Have we learned anything? Apparently not. You've got your mind on war, Mr. Dubya? Why dammit, we'll have war. At all costs.
I think it's awfully presumptuous, WLD, to say it's a fad. And I think Tilt makes a good reply to that. However, for fun, let's look at it as a "fad."
When you first started backpacking WLD, how did you get into it? Did something, somehow, interest you in it? And look, my gosh, it stuck!! Same can be said of anyone in any situation.
If your concern is, say, soccer moms or whatever, are you saying they can't come to a march with a little concern over a war and leave with a lot of concern over a war? We all learn and keep learning. That's the beauty of being human.
And Dunadan, thank you for identifying that as "anectdotal reporting." Wouldn't want you getting grilled like I did.
On that point, let me also say to bacpac. From what I quoted, you will see what you want, which pretty much the opposite of what I see. You know what that means? I'm doing a damned good job, if both sides berate me and tell me I'm swaying the story to the opposite of their beliefs. It means the story gives its views, draws no conclusions, and you've drawn what you want to read into it.”
“lizs, You admitted it was an opinion piece. You want people to read your opinion and then form an opinion? Why not print the facts and let people form their own opinion?”
“When terrorists drop a nuclear or chemical weapon on the US, I want to see all the war protesters out marching.
Preferably in the vicinity of the blast.”
“you didn't need to be around for the vietnam protests to know about them. they were highly ineffective. what a waste of years and time. if that much energy and time were put into helping in vietnam, we probably would have been out of there by 70'. just because something works in the long run doesn't mean it was the best means for the job. in my opinion, the protests did more harm to this nation than good. yeah, eventually the protests pushed a different administration into doing something about getting out of vietnam. chances are, we would have ended up being out of there by then anyway. look at all the hate a discontent they caused that lingers on to this day. hate and discontent for people doing there job a soldiers. hate and discontent for the very people who's job it is to save and protect each and everyone of those protesting.
and lizs, did you find where u.s. rule = world rule is written? can't recall seeing it anywhere myself. while i don't agree with much of the u.s. foreign medeling, i do think sadam needs to be dealt with. maybe we could wait and let france take care of it. if they continue to develop their attack systems, nobody on this earth will be safe. they could probably say the same things about us. funny situation isn't it. maybe when we quit feeding the world and quit proping up the economies around the world we can quit wanting other things around the world. we'll have to wait and see how it looks when we take our ball and go home.
yeah, i'm protesting for peace so i going to be violent to get my way. makes a lot of sense to me. kind of like peta killing people to save animals.”
“and for those who continue to attack bacpac for being proud of his accomplishments in the military, lets hear some of the great things you have done. lots of merit and no honor? you should be ashamed of that comment. my father is extremely proud of his accomplishments in the military also. and loves to talk about them. and he has every right to, he has earned it as has bacpac.”
“Dunadan, I agree with you that folks have the right to speak out and protest. I just question its power today.What ever came of the causes of the Million Man or Million Mom march,what about the AIDS rallies and the like.It just seems like its part of the cause-of-the-day playbook to have a rally,they ares so common that they lack the shock value they once did. It used to freak people out hen 200k folks got together,its now just another protest. In the 60-70's it was a different time. Folks had a lot more to fight for (and against) like segregation and an intractable war. Folks were willing to and did die for their beliefs in those causes. I seriously doubt anyone gives a flip enough about this to face the riot cops and their teargas and batons. I would be willing to bet a huge portion of those going to protest drove their SUVs to get there.
Lizs, geez enough of the drama already. Its not Vietnam all over or anything like it. For one GW hasnt sent the boys in yet. Kennedy and LBJ had our boys overseas dying for naught well before the riots and marches started.”
“bacpac, I will write from the quotes above, that is what I'm saying. I will not draw any conclusions for anyone in print. I do not insert my own opinions. I say to you, here, that is what I got out of that interview. As I would tell a friend in conversation. And since you say you got the opposite, my story --FROM THE QUOTES! -- will do what it is supposed to. Just tell the facts of what was said. sheesh!
baume 66, I am honestly surprised there weren't protests when Gore lost the election. I sat back and waited to see what would happen, how much discontent there would be. Because it certainly spoke to a political system that wasn't working as it's supposed to, one in need of reform.
Now there are protests and there are riots. Sorry I used the term "riots," although that is some of what happened during the Vietnam era. I know my college alma matter had some buildings fire-bombed at that time.
Let's just say that Vietnam perhaps proved to be our awakening, where the common people finally realized that our government isn't always into things for the "right" or "noble" reason. We paid attention to the fact our leaders screw around on their wives not just a little, but a lot. We paid attention to the fact that, golly, they do feel they have to pay off that big campaign contribution in some manner. That they put the PR "spin" on things just as if a movie were being released or a company has lost 50% of its revenues and needs a shiny, new image. And that is certainly not "right" or "noble" in government, to go after your own agenda.
I think that's what we finally came awake and realized in Vietnam. And the #&%!$ hit the fan for so many years of crap we'd taken. We vowed "we won't be fooled again."
It's too bad the vets took the brunt. No, I don't think that's right. It's awful. But I would surely not say the Vietnam era protests were "ineffective." It opened our eyes to big government operating as a full-fledged marketing machine. And we needed that.”
“We veterans are still taking the brunt. My service to my country is rewarded with insults.”
“I never said I was against the march if that's your thing. I just don't think it's that effective, unless the issue isn't well known and it is used as a marketing ploy.
I still think that mainstream USA see's a demonstration and thinks "Look at all of those nuts".
I still don't see how anything said here will make a difference regarding if we go to war or don't go, explain please.
Tilt - I voted for Gore. I may be more right than left on some issues, but the Republicans scare me when it comes to enviro issues.”
“Thank you for serving our Country.
Don't think that I like you or anything - But thanks”
“Stalker, they scare me too, on that issue (and maybe a couple of others). Gore didn't have a prayer in this neighborhood so I wrote in Nader. Georgia law makes getting on the ballot nearly impossible for a third party candidate. They made the hurdle higher still after the Ross Perot phenomenon.
I think both major parties have sold out to the highest bidder and Nader's ego blinds him on many occasions.
And so it goes!
Bacpac, your service to the nation has Absolutely Nothing to do with the way people react to you here --- it's that Caring Sympathetic Personality you exhibit so freely.
When you purposefully act like a jerk PLEASE try not to act surprised when people treat you like one, LOLOLOLOL!”
“Sorry, Tilt, but I've been watching and, even when Bacpac has posted nicely, and politely, people are throwing stones at him. Some of them appear to be doing it because of past events, and others appear to be doing it because of the trend. These people are entering my book at a very low level.
I see Bacpac displaying an extreme amount of tolerance and patience with these stone throwers. Currently, I have much more respect for him than any of his critics.
When I first joined TT there were strings in which posters stated that this was a place where people could make mistakes, could express opposite opinions and, yet, all could come back and continue as if friends. But this continuing display of rancor reeks like a witch-hunt.
You know that I am serious. In making this statement there is nothing for me to gain. But, if I can convince just one person to grow-up and back-off, it will be more than adequate gratification. I would be honored and proud to stand along side of Bacpac any time.”
“BTW, the subject at Sunday School Class this morning was, "Love."”
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