Tax cuts for the Rich

“As I recall, the report came out originally with the $44 trillion punchline conveniently excised. That part slipped out later.

When did that story come out? Back in September?”

“My brother is a hard core Christian Conservative Republican. He ran Bush's campaign in NW Ohio in 00', and is very involved in State politics (it's his profession). Here is a recent email exchange between the both of us I thought you'd all enjoy:

Brother: "Dear, Fellow Republican



Welcome to two-thousand and four. In the New Year there will be many opportunities for you to support the Republican Party with the presidential election and the many local offices on the ballet. Due to your past support, I would like to take this opportunity to invite you to join the Toledo Metropolitan Area Young Republicans.

As a member of T.M.A.Y.R.C. you will have the opportunity to participate in many of our events such as the State Young Republicans Convention hosted in downtown Toledo this spring. Some of the other great events on the calendar for 2004 are the Regan Day Party to support Alzheimer research and the Annual golf outing. Additionally our club meets monthly the third Thursday of the month. At these meetings you will get a chance to meet the local candidates, and hear how they stand on the issues that affect your life.

Due to the hard work of the Young Republicans in 2003 we have been able to lower the dues to ten dollars. These dues are used to support the Toledo Area YR organization’s needs, such as the quarterly newsletter and to pay for events like are Christmas party and summer picnic as well as supporting our many candidates. Dues can be paid at our first meeting 6:00pm January 15th, 2003 at the Durty Bird on the corner of Washington and St. Clair St. If you will not be able to attend this meeting dues may be paid by mail before January 31st. Include with your check your name, address, phone number, and email address, so that we may keep you up to date on the club.

Thank you for your support and dedication."

Me: "Damn! I spent that $10 on duct tape and plastic sheets like Tom Ridge told me to. Sorry, I guess I won't be part of the gang this year. Good luck."

Brother: "Better save it up for the big Dem. tax increase! Hell, I'm just kidding, the democrats will never get elected so your taxes will stay the same - so go ahead and spend it.

Buddha's Bro

p.s. - As I was typing this I heard on the radio that our mayor was considering a tax increase for 2004 - pretty funny.

Me: "Well, the way I see it is like this bro. That $300 that most folks got back was sucked up in tax increases. After GWB passed the "No Child Left Behind" Act, and then refused to fund it, along with losses of millions of jobs, and less funding going to states from the feds, Ohio as well as local governments have had to raise taxes; income, sales and property, in order to function. Some cities, like Cleveland, have had to lay off hundreds of workers due to these tax cuts. What do we have show for it? A war finding weapons of mass destruction that don't exist, a surplus that has turned into a huge and rapidly growing debt, and unemployment and the economy lagging, as well as those state and local tax increases. George and you republican types are doing a fine job, and I hope to see it for at least 300 more days. :)”

“The Bush family has usurped the oil wealth of Kuwait and Iraq. How long will it be before a justification is fabricated to invade Saudi Arabia?”

“Nixon thought of that already....”

“"Even more surreal, a study commissioned by former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neil indicated that the 50 year forecast U.S. deficit would reach $44 trillion. The study was suppressed. O'Neil was fired.

Does anyone have any idea where we could get our hands on this?"
-- Phaedrus
11:47:53 AM
01/07/04


You can read a CNN/Money story on it here money.cnn.com

You could buy a hardcopy version from the American Enterprise Institute for $15

Or (if you have Adobe Reader) you can download it free here.

Jagadeesh Gokhale is now a senior fellow with the CATO Institute (not exactly a bunch of raging commies).”

“Trickle dddddd
ooooo
wwwwww
nnnnnnnn?”

“Thanks for the links, Vio.”

“OH MY GOD THE WORLD IS GOING TO HELL IN A HANDBASKET!

Yep, as I remember the deficits created in the 80's stagnated our economy all through the 80s and 90s. Of course in 50 years the U.S. deficit will reach $44 trillion. UNLESS WE ELECT A DEMOCRAT WHO WILL DO THE RESPONSIBLE THING!”

“OH MY GOD THE WORLD IS GOING TO HELL IN A HANDBASKET!

Yep, as I remember the deficits created in the 80's stagnated our economy all through the 80s and 90s. Of course in 50 years the U.S. deficit will reach $44 trillion. UNLESS WE ELECT A DEMOCRAT WHO WILL DO THE RESPONSIBLE THING!”

“About the authors:

From the Cato Institute:
Jagadeesh Gokhale, one of the nation's leading economists and an expert on entitlement reform, has joined the Cato Institute as a senior fellow. Gokhale, former senior economic adviser to the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland, has been on leave from the Fed for the past year, serving as a visiting scholar with the American Enterprise Institute. Gokhale will work with Cato's Project on Social Security Choice, examining the problems of the current Social Security system and helping to design market-based alternatives.

Gokhale's is widely recognized as one of the nation's leading experts on U.S. fiscal policy and its intergenerational impact. His analysis of the sustainability of entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare was published in the Budget of the United States Government (1993, 1994, and 1995), and he has testified before the Senate Budget Committee on Social Security's treatment of postwar U.S. generations. In related work, Gokhale has studied how fiscal policy affects national saving and the accumulation and distribution of wealth. Gokhale has also constructed computer simulations to study the causes of wealth inequality in the United States with a special focus on the role of bequests in transmitting wealth inequality across successive generations.

Gokhale has been widely published in top academic journals such as the Journal of Economic Perspectives, Quarterly Journal of Economics, Review of Economics and Statistics, and the Brookings Papers on Economic Activity, as well as in several publications of the National Bureau of Economic Research and of the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland. His latest book, Fiscal and Generational Imbalances: New Budget Measures for New Budget Priorities, coauthored with Kent Smetters, was released by AEI this past June. Gokhale is also the author of "The Impact of Social Security Reform on Low-Income Workers" and coauthor of "Social Security Privation: One Proposal" (with David Altig), both Cato Institute Social Security Choice Papers.

Gokhale received his PhD in economics from Boston University.

From worldbank.org:
Kent Smetters has been an assistant professor in the Insurance and Risk Management Department at The Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania since 1998. He received his Ph.D. in economics in 1995 from Harvard University and worked at the Congressional Budget Office from 1995 to 1998 where he conducted research on Social Security Reform and tax reform. His most recent research focuses on intergenerational risk sharing. He was a visitor at the Stanford Economics Department during the previous 2000–1 academic year. President Bush appointed him Deputy Assistant Secretary for Economic Policy of the US Treasury on July 3, 2001.


Yep. Definately a couple of leftist political hacks.”

“Buffett Says Bush Tax Cuts Favor Wealthy

By Joe Ruff, Associated Press Writer

Billionaire Investor Warren Buffett Says Bush Tax Cuts Favor Large Corporations, Wealthy

OMAHA, Neb. (AP) -- Billionaire investor Warren Buffett _{world's 2nd richest man} accused the Bush administration Saturday of pursuing tax cuts that favor large corporations and wealthy individuals.

"If class warfare is being waged in America, my class is clearly winning," Buffett said in Berkshire Hathaway Inc.'s annual report.

Except for 1983, the percentage of federal tax receipts from corporate income taxes last year was the lowest since data was first published in 1934, Buffett said.

"Tax breaks for corporations (and their investors, particularly large ones) were a major part of the administration's 2002 and 2003 initiatives," Buffett said.

Buffett said many large corporations now pay nothing close to the stated federal tax rate of 35 percent.

more...”

“He must be a democrat.”

“It can't be true! George is compassionate to everybody!”

“No kidding. It's a vast left wing conspiriscy (or how ever the pchuck you spell it).

Why is it that all of these people are comingout of the wood work to debunk Bush? WoW!

All Bush has left is the hardcore right wing people.


Stern today on his show said that he would never vote for a man that was bought and traded by the Religious right.

Is it me, or are we seeing a trend? Or this another "Lie"?

Wake up peeps! It's GO time!!”

“I sure wish the Dems would have selected someone I could vote for, someone a little more moderate. I cannot vote for GW, and I hate to not vote two pres elections in a row, couldn't vote for him last time either. I'll bet there are A LOT of people who think as I do on this.”

“You would be very correct, wanderer.

However:


A.B.B.




Sad, but true....”

“wanderer... GOOO NADER!!!”

“So let me get this right...the more someone makes, the more they take, the more they get as a break?



Those phucking rat bassturds!!! They must be stopped! Down with the rich! Down with the successful! Down with the hard workers! Die die die!”

“We must punish successful people in this country, dern it. If they wanna work really super hard and make more money, we'll teach 'em, we'll just TAKE EVEN MORE FROM THEM and give it to the rest of us to discourage such practices. That outta teach 'em have ambition in this country. Sheesh.”

“Buck, welcome back, and please quit using the term dern, I find it highly offensive.

lol

Hey, as soon as they start taxing evenly based on what the tax to income ration is, you won't hear me complain.”

“the rich pay more for being protected from the poor.”

“"the rich pay more for being protected from the poor."
Phaedrus
07:59:58 PM
03/08/04
ignore this user
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FROM THE LIKES OF ME!!!! YEAH THATS RIGHT IM THAT CRACK HEAD WHO COMES UP TO YOU WHILE YOURE PUMPING GAS AND WONT LEAVE YOU ALONE...AND GUESS WHAT??? THEY HAVE YET FIGURE OUT A WAY TO TAX MY PAYCHECK...HAHAHA I DONT GOT NO SALES TAX EITHER WHAT YOU GONNA DO ABOUT THAT???”

“I've always wanted to hear a rational presentation supporting progressive taxation. Just seems so obviously unfair to me that different people get taxed at different rates. X% of your income is X%, whether you make 50K or 150K, you're paying a proportional share.

Or to put it more blunt terms:

"So, explain to me why it was I busted my a$$ to educate myself and be able to leave the depressed (and depressing) area where I was raised - and why I should be penalized for wanting to live in a better area, with better schools, so that my kids would have a better opportunity than I had".

EVERYONE has the opportunity to succeed if they really want to. Many of the friends I had in High School are in jail, derelicts, whatever... that was their CHOICE. Mine was to move out of there ASAP and make a better life for myself... that's what we're supposed to be instilling in our youth... work ethic, the fact that they ALL have opportunities for success in front of them, etc., not how to whine & moan about how someone else has something you don't and how it's sooo unfair.”

“My explanation is specifically for you, only because I respect you, and want to answer your question.

In order to answer your question, you have to answer one for me.

Is a person who cuts deli meat, and does it the best he/she can, and works the job because he/she has the aptitude/desire to do it, as valuable as a stockbroker under the same conditions?”

“My best friend is a smart guy, motivated, hard working, and contributes to society as a Barber. He is good at, works hard at, and loves what he is doing, and supports his family to the best of his talents. Why should he pay a higher percentage of his income in taxes than a CEO or stockbroker? That is my arguement. My arguement is based purely on non-elitistism (if there is such a word).”

“BB - That deli worker is absolutely, positively as valuable as anyone else on the planet, and arguably a MORE important person depending upon their contribution. That's not even up for debate in my book.

So now I'm curious... what's that have to do with progressive taxation? (And yes, I am slow sometimes, so help me!)”

“Why should someone who cuts meat for a living pay more of his/her usable income in taxes than a CEO or stockbroker?”

“I wanna make sure my position is clear.... I DO NOT ever believe that a wealthier person should pay LESS, I just believe we should all pay our "fair share", which should be proportionally the same.”

“Why is it fair that someone with inherited wealth, who lives entirely off of his trust fund, pays a smaller proportion of his income in taxes than the barber?”

“Yes. Currently, the rich (people who make more than $100,000) pay less of a income:tax ratio percentage in income taxes than somebody making anything less.

Tilt or Violin posted the exact figures last month, it's a big disparity(2%-4%), percentage wise.”

“If you even that percentage out, which I think is fair, and class positive, it would wipe out Bush's tax cuts and more.

BTW - Violin adds an excellent point regarding companies. Small businesses are in the same baot as the middle class.”

“wanderer - add in payroll tax (part of which stops at $87,000), sales tax, property tax, various fees (taxes) and tell me if a flat tax would take an equal proportion of everyone's income.


Do you really think that the person of limited skills, who can only make minimum wage and lacks the brainpower to do better should pay a good chunk of his or her paycheck in taxes?”

“Nice discussion.

First, let's stick to earned income, as I would acknowledge that the issues surrounding inherited wealth perhaps would muddy the debate, and, I think we would agree, belong to another debate. We can get to that later.

Second, let's also defer the discussion on business taxes... that's a totally different animal and not germain to the central argument of the debate... that being the equity of progressive taxation.

Third, let's also *assume*, for the sake of discussion, that the tax loopholes, tricks & gimmicks that all the special interest groups have managed to insert into our tax code are gone.

My argument is that, IN THEORY, progressive taxation is unfair to those who, by good fortune, or their own hard work, or some measure of both, have managed to elevate themselves to an "upper income" category. Again, forget the tax write-off's, loopholes, etc., my question was...IN THEORY where is the "fairness" of having one group pay proportionally more than another?

If we're all "equal", why aren't we all taxed equally?

Finally, I would support a flat-tax proposal that eliminated the garbage that clutters our tax code and keeps tax attorneys employed. That was a very attractive position in the campaign platform a few years ago of Mr. Forbes...”

“IRS data shows that just the top five percent of taxpayers paid 56.5 percent of all income taxes in 2000.

To make it into the top half of all taxpayers that year, you had to earn only $27,682, but that group paid nearly all of the nation’s income taxes.

The Democrats want to raise taxes on the wealthy. That's YOU
if you make over $27,682.”

“If the rich get taxed less why do lottery winners get screwed for more than 50%? I get bent for about 35% and I ain't close to being rich. Why does the rich lottery winner get screwed for an extra 15%?”

“The Democrats want to raise taxes on the wealthy. That's YOU
if you make over $27,682.

That's a ridiculous statement. Where did you get these stats? I looked on IRS.gov and found nothing similar.”

“I have heard, in the past, and have been unable to locate a source, the following: The richest 50% of taxpayers pay 98% of the taxes. That is another statement similar to what prosecutor is saying. Is anyone able to find any cooberation to this or any similar statement?

Personally, I am really wrankled at how they take so much of my money, without my permission and just give it to others. Specifically, I am talking about the welfare cases. I have worked in low income housing and seen how they spend "my" money. I don't want to be seen as lacking compassion, and am fairly willing to help them out. But when they get so much of "my" money that they can stock a really good bar, buy tons of lottery tickets, and rent all kinds of DVD's.... well, I know they are getting way too much of "my" money for sitting on their ever increasing duffs.

Shucks, I'd be happy if EVERYONE paid a straight 10% or whatever.

Okay, I'm done ranting.....”

“my wife and her mother were mentioning that france doesnt have income tax and sales tax ...just a sales tax...around about 20%....i dont know about you all but this is sensible to me...i work hard for the little money i get and it gets old to see them taking 30 dollars of every 120 that i make....guesstimate there.....i wouldnt mind a national sales tax, i dont buy anythihg but food anyway so it wouldnt affect me....let the people who are out blowing through money and racking up debt on their credit cards pay for it....”

“I don’t really have time to debunk some of the false notions posted above.


My thinking is like this, wanderer. It takes a certain amount of money to provide the basics for a reasonably dignified life – something I think all working people have a basic right to. Money left over after paying for food, shelter, clothing and medical expenses is worth less than the money needed to pay for those basics. To tax those crucial first dollars at the same rate as money a wealthier person would spend on luxuries is not fair. To expect someone to go hungry to pay his ‘fair share’ of taxes when his wealthier neighbor only needs to give up some frivolous purchase is unfair.



For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.”

“the top 5% pay 53.25% of all income taxes (Down from 2000 figure: 56.47%). The top 10% pay 64.89% (Down from 2000 figure: 67.33%). The top 25% pay 82.9% (Down from 2000 figure: 84.01%). The top 50% pay 96.03% (Down from 2000 figure: 96.09%). The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.97% of all income taxes. The top 1% is paying more than ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%! And who earns what? The top 1% earns 17.53 (2000: 20.81%) of all income. The top 5% earns 31.99 (2000: 35.30%). The top 10% earns 43.11% (2000: 46.01%); the top 25% earns 65.23% (2000: 67.15%), and the top 50% earns 86.19% (2000: 87.01%) of all the income.

Most of the rich have earned their wealth... Looking @the Fortun 400, quite a few even of the very richest people came form standing start, while others inherited a smallers and turned it into a giant corporation.

The point is; YOu can't give "the poor"(the bottom 50% a tax cut cuz THEY DON'T PAY TAXES. i will shout this from the mountaintops untill you all understand.


http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/01in01ts.xls

look it up yourself

the truth will set you free



JIHAD BUSH!”

“"The point is; YOu can't give "the poor"(the bottom 50% a tax cut cuz THEY DON'T PAY TAXES. i will shout this from the mountaintops untill you all understand."

stratdewd
07:38:33 AM
03/09/04

OMG - nobody here is asking for a tax cut for the bottom 50%. Nobody here is asking for a tax cut for anybody. Jeez.”

“I am treading on ground that i hope I can make sense out of because taxation, finance and economics in general are admittedly not my strong points. But, I will try to make a point. First off, it's hard to make an argument defending progressive taxatin as Wanderer was looking for because, the way i see it, the loopholes, shelters, tricks and such are what keeps money flowing for the rich. If it was just a cut and dried percentage factor, then they would get murdered in how much they pay, I would think. I make a mediocre salary considering the cost of living here in the city. I try to work overtime as much as possible to help make ends meet. The taxation rate for that extra money makes one want to cry at times, when you consider how much of your time you sacrifice for it and then see over 40% of it (or more) go to the government. It's frustrating. I don't have any REAL assets to bury any tax breaks in, so my salary is pretty much whatever I take home with very little year end deductions. I guess my point is that those that have the ability to do some 'creative financing' at the year's end are at a bit of a better advantage than the guy/gal who works and lives paycheck to paycheck. Again, if I didn't nail this point, rip my argument up and I will stand corrected. But, these are the impressions I get.”

“United States Tax Freedom Day: April 19, 2003.

Canada, Germany, and France usually reach Tax Freedom Day in late June.”

“Interesting discussion here. Very well thought out points on both sides. I am sort of on the fence on this issue. First, I believe the flat tax, on paper, seems the most fair. I do not believe that people should lose more of their money just because they had the ambition to go out and make their fortune. However, I do agree that if you paid , for example, a 10% flat tax, 10% of a 100,000 salary probably is not going to hurt you as much financially as someone who has to pay 10% of 20,000 salary. I definitely agree with Monkeyboy in that we have made it too easy for people to live on welfare. I know many people on government assistance who still make it to biloxi once or twice a month to play the slots all night. That ain't right....But at the same time my father is on permanent workman's comp( a form of welfare) after being permanently disabled at Goodyear. So you can see how difficult it is to take a position on this view. My entire family is blue collar democrats. I was born and raised hearing about how the unions protect workers and must be supported...and yet I have never voted Democrat. In the end I guess that the financial platforms are not as important as others for me personally. I am probably a democrat in my financial views, but my moral beliefs will not let me vote for someone who supports some of the liberal issues such as abortion. Guess I will continue to look for that perfect Indy!”

“Hey BB, I am asking for a tax cut for myself. I am sure many others are too. When the folks who get my confiscated dollars and buy lottery tickets with them, and booze, things i can't justify on my budget.... Well they are just taking too much from me.

So, yes, someone here is asking for tax reduction-ME!!!”

“Throw in health care with the tax and Canada makes more sence.Oh, most of you don't know the price of health care ,because you don't pay your own.”

“I wouldn't mind a tax cut, actually.

However, a choice was made to go to war. The war wasn't without merits. But it costs a lot of money. That has to come from somewhere.

Choose: War or tax cut.

I also question this gospel that tax cuts always promote growth. We sure haven't seen that lately.

And I'll assume that there is a basement level below which tax cuts actually become harmful.

You could argue the "I earned it, I should keep it" line until taxes were zero. But it would be hard for the illiterate UPS truck driver to drive down that unmaintained street.”

“OMG - nobody here is asking for a tax cut for the bottom 50%. Nobody here is asking for a tax cut for anybody. Jeez."
Buddha Bear


the title of the thread is; TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH

that implies that the poor are once again trampled on because they got no tax cuts, furthuring the absolute falicy that repubs don't care abuot the poor and only help rich people. the tax cuts HAVE to be for the rich, cuz the poor pay very little.

if you think you don't need a tax cut or that you pay too little, it is perfectly legal to pay extra and i encourage you to do so.”

“Kid Rock

..i show love to those who come real wit it, life's a #&%!$ but i deal wit it...”