Conservative Values

“vote libertarian and throw your vote away.”

“How true, Zac. We just lie back and admire their vapour trails.”

“At least I sleep well at night by voting libertarian instead of one of the left-right crock twins.”

“Gremlin, I admire your "-our's"

I've been to Rocky Harbour, NF.

Groovy place.....”

“COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado (CNN) -- The Rev. Ted Haggard, who has resigned as one of the nation's top evangelical leaders, admitted Friday he had contacted a male prostitute for a massage and bought methamphetamine.

"I was buying it for me, but I never used it," said Haggard, 50, sitting in the driver's seat of a car with his wife, Gayle, at his side during an impromptu interview with CNN Denver affiliate KUSA-TV.

"I never kept it very long because it was wrong. I was tempted. I bought it. But I never used it."

Haggard also acknowledged contacting Mike Jones but has denied Jones' accusation that the two men regularly had sex over three years.

The admissions -- after Haggard's earlier denials that he even knew Jones -- resonated among America's evangelicals and Christian leaders."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/03/haggard.allegations/index.html

If you believe this guy, then you have to believe that Clinton never inhaled.

(P.S. How long will it take SS to complain that this isn't Fuego)
last edited: 11/03/06 10:08:35 PM”

“These televangelist guys are skilled at acting, that's how the make their money.

OK, he bought the stuff but never used it.
Yeah, right!

Uh huh, he's a professional liar......and a pervert it seems too.”

“This shows what this country has become under Republican control. Preaching God while practicing the devil. I have to agree that anyone involved in politics is a liar and that includes the religious leaders who have pushed religion into politics. It certainly makes a mockery of religion.
last edited: 11/03/06 10:16:25 PM”

“It cewrtainly does, if you have no concept of it.”

“COLORADO SPRINGS, Colorado (CNN) -- Evangelical pastor Ted Haggard confessed on Sunday to a "lifelong" sexual problem, and said he was "a deceiver and a liar," in a letter read to his New Life Church.

"There is part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it all my life," he said in the letter.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/05/haggard.allegations/index.html

You were right Marko. Sometimes one wonders if religion is a deception itself.”

“It is a deception and is exactly what keeps all its ardent followers children and perpetual victims.”

“Wouldn't the deception of these religious nuts be that since he admitted and apologized, that God would forgive him, therefore we should too?”

“Didn't this guy have thousands of church members?

It sounds as though Haggard is a fraud and a huckster and a thief.

His flock might do well to sue the pants clean off of him.

I'll bet those pants have some mighty deep pockets.......loaded with the money of a lot of suckers.”

“Most of the money probably went to the RNC, good luck recovering it.”

“It sounds as though Haggard is a fraud and a huckster and a thief.

So you are saying that Haggard didn't preach that we are all sinners? Really?”

“Nimblefoot - The very essence of Christianity is the fact that we are ALL sinners. That is the very core principle of Christianity. How do you think it's a deception? It would be a deception if Christianity taught that we can beat sin by ourselves and don't need Jesus Christ as our savior because we can perfect ourselves. I'm pretty sure that isn't taught in the Christian church. Do you have a different experience with it?



last edited: 11/05/06 12:53:35 PM”

“"So you are saying that Haggard didn't preach that we are all sinners? Really?"

NO, you said all that.

I said "It sounds as though Haggard is a fraud and a huckster and a thief."

I don't give a rat's ass what he preached.
He worked those people for money, money, money!!!!”

“I didn't say Christianity, but religion. In my opinion religion is mans interpretation of it.”

“NO, you said all that.

No I didn't I said that he DID preach that we are all sinners. You got it backwards there bucko.

I don't give a rat's ass what he preached.

And that is exactly why you don't understand that he wasn't a fraud, a huckster, and a thief.”

“I didn't say Christianity, but religion. In my opinion religion is mans interpretation of it. - Nimblefoot

Sorry, I thought you were replying to USA who was talking about Haggard's religion.”

“Moonglo loves frauds, hucksters and thieves.


Haggard worked those people for money.
He had a congregation of how many thousands??
Big Box, Mega Church......BIG BUCKS is the outcome no matter what the stated intention.”

“He may have got lots of money from preaching, but that doesn't mean his message was a fraud. It doesn't mean he was a huckster. And it doesn't mean he was a thief.”

“OK, his message might have been right soothing to his "flock" and his boyfriend's "massage" might have been just what the old boy "kneaded", but he's a phony.....a fraud for being something other than he claimed.
And he did it for money........somebody gotta kick the money changers outta the temple.

Haggard preached against homosexuality while he practiced it.

On might say that Haggard practiced what he preached!

I suppose he wanted to make sure he knew what he was talking about!

Hahahahahahahaha!!!
(Big Goofy Grin)”

“but he's a phony.....a fraud for being something other than he claimed.

MarkO - This is what you don't understand. I'll type real slowly for you.

The basic message of Christianity is that we are all sinners.

That means preachers, ushers, even the old ladies who play Bingo in the Methodist churches.

We ALL need Christ because we're sinners.

No Christian claims to NOT be a sinner. If they did, they wouldn't be a Christian.

Why you think that Christians believe they don't sin (i.e. - lie, steal, cheat, commit homosexual acts, curse God, hate, etc..) is beyond me. If you think they think that, you've missed the basic point of Christianity.

Christians preach against sins that God has said are sins. Period. Why? Because we are supposed to TRY to follow His commands because He has told us to. That does not mean we can do it. In fact, we know we cannot be perfect - that is, without Jesus Christ to be an offering to God FOR US, that is, for our sins.”

“The idea of fraud is interesting, but...

...religion doesn't play on a level playing field with non-religious groups.

For instance, Catholic schools are difficult to unionize because the NLRB can't oversee a union election in a Catholic school - separation of church and state.

I recently read about a Christian drug buyers group that doesn't have to follow government drug regulations because it is a church.

And, of course, there is always the issue of local zoning. Churches are often exempt from zoning laws because they are, well, churches. This isn't a problem until the church creates a coffee shop and bookstore on the premises and generates as much traffic as the local strip mall.

Face it. Churches get preferential treatment. So, no fraud.”

“oh brother ...”

“BTW, I think it would be interesting to find out the psychological makeup of a guy who does something like this.

I remember laughing in college because I'd have these friends who would slingshot. They would be incredibly observant and then incredibly unobservant. This seemed especially true of some of the people that I knew who belonged to the more rigid, proselytizing groups/churches on campus.

It was almost like they had to be more observant to make up for all the nasty stuff they'd done.”

“I think it would be interesting to find out the psychological makeup of a guy who does something like this.

Sins? ..... We all do.

What I find interesting is that so far, everyone of you has ignored that basic principle of Christianity to make your points regarding hypocrisy.

Very interesting indeed!




last edited: 11/05/06 3:08:03 PM”

“"What I find interesting is that so far, everyone of you has ignored that basic principle of Christianity to make your points regarding hypocrisy."

What I find interesting is that you religeous folks just don't seem to "get" how you are percieved by most of the rest of the world. The image you all seem to try to project is that you are "holier than thou" (or at least that's the way we all percieve it), and so it then it cracks us up when something like this Haggard controversy arises.

That's why this Haggard thing is kinda' funny and viewed as "hypocritical".”

“What I find interesting is that you religeous folks just don't seem to "get" how you are percieved by most of the rest of the world. The image you all seem to try to project is that you are "holier than thou" (or at least that's the way we all percieve it), and so it then it cracks us up when something like this Haggard controversy arises.

wanderer - First off, most of my life I was not a Christian, so please don't assume I don't know how Christians are perceived. I know exactly how they're perceived. Secondly, we do not TRY to project that image at all. What you are perceiving as trying to be holier than thou is actually us trying very hard (and failing) to meet God's commandments. There is no Christian church that I know of (if there is, it's not Christian by definition) that preaches that we are "holier than thou". In fact, the primary message given in just about EVERY sermon I've ever been to is that we are the exact opposite of that. You really need to open up your mind and really study what Christian's believe instead of what your hatred of them gears you to believe and what the worldly perception of them is. Have you ever actually had a conversation with a Christian? Did he/she tell you something other than they are a sinner in need of Salvation?

The perception you speak of only exists because the reality of the Christian message is ignored by people like you. To me, that is what is funny and hypocritical, in a manner of speaking.



last edited: 11/05/06 3:36:23 PM”

“Exactly what is a "sin"?”

“A "sin" is an act committed that defies the commands or will of God.”

“wanderer - This statement : "What I find interesting is that you religeous folks just don't seem to "get" how you are percieved by most of the rest of the world." is especially funny today because our guest speaker talked about how we are perceived by the rest of the world ... and one of his key points is that when we speak we and our message will be ignored by many people because of their perception of us. So far, you have proven him to be exactly right. So it's very ironic that you would say such a thing while ignoring the main message we (I) am saying regarding our sin and need for salvation just several hours after he said that.



last edited: 11/05/06 3:46:08 PM”

“I suppose the Bible is the book that defines exactly what is a sin and, therefore, what is not...?”

“I suppose the Bible is the book that defines exactly what is a sin and, therefore, what is not...?

When read contextually, that is, if you don't read single versus but consider the Bible as a whole, much like you would consider any book which speaks about history or a book about physics, then "yes" the Bible is that book that defines for humans what is sin and what is not.

You threw in the word "exactly", and although it is true it defines "exactly" what is and what is not sin, you won't find a (complete) laundry list. You will on the other hand find many examples and guidelines. In fact! That is such a major part of the Word of the Bible because Jesus Himself talked about that. He came to earth and explained to the Pharisees that they were incorrectly interpreting the law by not considering the "heart" of the law. It's a simple concept, but easily overlooked if one were to skip around in the Bible without actually reading it.



last edited: 11/05/06 4:02:37 PM”

“"Why you think that Christians believe they don't sin (i.e. - lie, steal, cheat, commit homosexual acts, curse God, hate, etc..) is beyond me. If you think they think that, you've missed the basic point of Christianity."

Oh I understand, y'all can do as ya please and then be forgiven.

I prefer to lead a good life without buggering-up.......get on the good foot and stay there.”

“Oh I understand, y'all can do as ya please and then be forgiven.

It would appear is if you don't understand. As a Christian we don't "do as we please". We screw up. There is a difference.

I prefer to lead a good life without buggering-up.......get on the good foot and stay there.

I'm glad you're perfect MarkO. Maybe Jesus will have a seat for you next to Him for you perfect tushy.”

“"You really need to open up your mind and really study what Christian's believe instead of what your hatred of them gears you to believe and what the worldly perception of them is. Have you ever actually had a conversation with a Christian?"

moonglo
1:31:44 PM

Sarge, you're making a lot of "assumptions" here, the first being that I have some "hatred" of Christians? How in the world would you ever have gotten that? I've never typed one word inferring that in any way, shape or form.

I await your apology on that point.

Next, I'll have you know I was raised a Christian, and was very active in the church for a long time. For you to suggest I haven't had a conversation with a Christian, when I used to be one, and a very active one at that, is laughable!

I'll await your apology on that second point also.
last edited: 11/05/06 4:09:45 PM”

“Sarge, you're making a lot of "assumptions here, the first being that I have some "hatred" of Christians? How in the world would you ever have gotten that? I've never typed one word inferring that in any way, shape or form.

By ignoring our message and following that by putting words in our mouths is extremely disrespectful. If you don't "hate" Christians, you at least are a far cry from showing any respect for them so you might as well be. Besides, your reply AGAIN ignores the message. Can't you talk about this while keeping things in context simultaneously?

Next, I'll have you know I was raised a Christian, and was very active in the church for a long time. Don't suggest I haven't had a conversation with a Christian, I used to be one!

It's impossible to be a Christian and then not be a Christian. That makes no sense.”

“Sarge, how can you have possibly arrived at this perverted belief that if I don't believe what you believe, then I hate or disrespect Christians?

Maybe I just don't believe what you do... and that makes me an "enemy" somehow? That's as sick & twisted as the radical Muslim factions.

"It's impossible to be a Christian and then not be a Christian. That makes no sense.”

Yes, it makes a lot of sense. I USED to believe something, and then I studied, learned, conversed with others, and gained a larger perspective which led me to change my belief system. It happens every day, in case you haven't noticed.”

“Sheesh, a guy like Sarge "finds it" and its as though no one else has ever had a relationship with Christianity.

I had years of Catholic school and Catechism classes and a few retreats to seminaries in my youth.

Sarge, did you find Jesus at the bottom of a bottle or something?

And you keep using the word "hate".
I hold no hate for any religion.
I simply have to use for any religion.
Talk about "opening one's mind".....open your mind, Sarge.
Realize that some of us can be critical of something without "hating" it.
Is your hold on "faith" so tenuous that you are afraid of others being open about their feelings toward it?

"Exactly what is a "sin"?”
Nimblefoot
4:36:50 PM
11/05/06

Ok, wise guy!!
Its a little late for YOU!!”

“Sarge, how can you have possibly arrived at this perverted belief that if I don't believe what you believe, then I hate or disrespect Christians?

I didn't say that. I said you were ignoring their message and replacing it with your own.

Maybe I just don't believe what you do... and that makes me an "enemy" somehow? That's as sick & twisted as the radical Muslim factions.

More words in my mouth...

Yes, it makes a lot of sense. I USED to believe something, and then I studied, learned, conversed with others, and gained a larger perspective which led me to change my belief system. It happens every day, in case you haven't noticed.

No, it does not make sense. Either you're saved or you're not. If you're not, you're not a Christian. You may believe in some of the Christian beliefs, but that doesn't make you a Christian. Satan believed in Jesus, and he even believed what He said, but that didn't make Satan a Christian. God doesn't "unsave" somebody.”

“MarkO - I don't care if you were the Pope.”

“Oh boy, here we go with the Satan Stories.

If you are saved Sarge, then I don't wanna be.”

“That's fine MarkO. No skin off my back.”

“Deal!”

“It seems a question of "faith" and I don't seem to have it. Either you do or you don't, and I've never been able to figure out how to get myself to believe. When I ask this question of my Christian friends, they just get that smirky "I've got a secret" look to their faces and remain silent. However, if they truly believed as they say, one should notice certain charitable, compassionate attitutdes and behaviors. Many of them seem more concerned with how others should live, homophobia and anti-gun control legislation than making positive changes in their own lives. From evaluating the behaviors of many of that ilk it seems they are more outwardly directed (in the sense of pointing out what others should do) rather than looking inward to their own spiritual growth. I have been searching for many years, presently Northern Wisconsin, but other areas as well (many southern states) and this seems to be pretty much universal. I haven't given up, but along the way have found what works for me and gives me peace in the present.”

“and a little "piece" as a present is a good thing:)”

“Yes, Brer Nimblefoot!

Some of those people are really just busy-bodies and kinda narcissistic and as hung up on piety as an Islamic Fundie with his head gear all in a bunch.”

“Yes, it makes a lot of sense. I USED to believe something, and then I studied, learned, conversed with others, and gained a larger perspective which led me to change my belief system. It happens every day, in case you haven't noticed.

No, it does not make sense. Either you're saved or you're not. If you're not, you're not a Christian. You may believe in some of the Christian beliefs, but that doesn't make you a Christian


Sarge, I never meant to infer or suggest I am a Christian. I am not now, and don't want to be.”

“It seems a question of "faith" and I don't seem to have it. Either you do or you don't, and I've never been able to figure out how to get myself to believe. When I ask this question of my Christian friends, they just get that smirky "I've got a secret" look to their faces and remain silent.

My experience has shown that it is a question of faith, so they can't respond to you by giving you a magic answer. It's impossible. They can only tell you their experience.

However, if they truly believed as they say, one should notice certain charitable, compassionate attitutdes and behaviors. Many of them seem more concerned with how others should live, homophobia and anti-gun control legislation than making positive changes in their own lives. From evaluating the behaviors of many of that ilk it seems they are more outwardly directed (in the sense of pointing out what others should do) rather than looking inward to their own spiritual growth.

I can't speak about your particular friends, but my experience is that Christians talk like that when the conversation is about those issues. I doubt they'd JUST talk about that if you were around them enough to get to know them. Of course they give their opinion when speaking on issues of how people should live. Their entire system of belief is centered around the fact that we are given instruction on how to live and cannot meet those standards. If they didn't talk about that, they'd be ignoring their very being. I have NEVER met Christians who don't contemplate their own sinful nature. I bet if you really hung around them in their element (say in a Bible study or something), you'd see the rest of who they are and what they say.

I will gladly talk to you offline Nimblefoot if you want a fuller picture of what we believe.”