Can't believe no one has mentioned Yates

“Texas has a very limited definition of "not guilty by reason of insanity", the defense had to show that Yates did not know what she did was wrong. Her own statements to the police indicated that she knew what she did was wrong.

The state toughened the law after John Hinckley was found innocent of shooting Reagan. The mental health issue will probably get her life in prison (min 30 yrs) rather than the death penalty. Texas does not have "life without parole".
The Harris County (Houston) DA is afraid that a life with parole option will cause a jury to cut down on the number of death sentences.

Harris County has lead the state (nation?) in the number of death sentences issued for many years.”

“Exactly, trailhound57. In effect, her life is over. I'm not excusing what she did; it is rare for a mother to murder her whole brood in one event. There is no Christian theme that advocates killing children to save them from the devil. I just don't buy the idea that her husband is an innocent bystander.”

“Good point, Tom.”

“A defense of "insanity" is very difficult to establish. The test is whether the defendant had the capacity to appreciate the seriousness of the act at the time the act occurred. Conversely, showing "incapacity" at a particular moment is very difficult. IMHO, the defendant's testimony that she "felt bad" about what she was going to do was pretty damning evidence of her capacity at the time.

There is no doubt she was sick,,,very sick. However, under our system of justice and criminal defense, she obviously did not meet the standard to be judged "not guilty by reason of insanity".

At this point, her punishment should be proportionate to her crime and within the sentencing guidelines.

Dunandan, the courts have come a long way in their view of parents (Men v. Women). However, we are just recently past the "tender years doctrine" which for the most part said that a young child was presumed to better off with the mother. Most courts have abolished this doctrine, but I think the effects still linger in the judicial system.”

“This was a house that the husband built.

For sure....”

“This was a house that the husband built.

For sure....”

“As I understand it: in England they have a category of "guilty, but insane." This is one of those cases where the concept of "not guilty by reason of insanity" just doesn't apply.

Insanity never explains this kind of violence. I've known and worked with plenty of people who were at least as psychotic as Yates seems to have been, and yet never harmed anyone. I suspect she had some incredible level of twisted rage at her husband.

I don't claim to have the answer on what should be done with her. She does bear some responsibility here. Even the most psychotic people make choices. We don't have to hate someone or even be devoid of sympathy in order to convict them.

The easiest answer is: It seems like Texas law was appropriately applied.”

“For those who do appose the death penalty what is the argument? We always hear how barbaric, inhumane, and cruel it is without any solution or alternative. So what is so humane about being confined to a cage (not to mention other types of abuse that occur)? Lets hear a solution or alternative.”

“Trailhound, my opposition to the death penalty revolves around the defects in our system of justice. I think I could figure out how to turn the key to let someone out if a mistake was made.

However, I have yet to meet anyone in the flesh that can bring them back after a session with "ole sparky".

In cases where all of the evidence is direct as opposed to circumstantial, my opposition would lessen, but not to the point where I would agree with the penalty.”

“Aren't more appeals coming from prisoners who are on death row as opposed to those who get life sentences? Anyone know the statistics on this?”

“As I previously stated, I'm not as big a fan of the death penalty since DNA evidence has freed people from Death Row. I wonder how many innocent people have been put to death by the state? It's impossible to tell. All the evidence is destroyed after the sentence is carried out.

I have no problem with life without parole.”

“Splash I agree that as parents that the husband has to carry some of the blame. But how much, who knows? Fortunately, no one out side the courts and their family knows the situation well enough to make even a guess.

Chili36 I am in opposition to the death penalty on the grounds that there’s a realistic alternative solution. Never would I want to see someone suffer through the agonizing thought that his or her life in this world is over because of a crime. But I've still never heard one of a realistic solution.”

“I thought that the death penalty cases cost more money due to the number of appeals, etc. than just keeping the person in prison? I have too many conflicting feelings about the death penalty. Monster predators like Jeffery Dahmer should be injected. It did not bother me about McVeigh being put to death. But most other cases make me queasy, like we are playing God. So I'm not rational about this subject.”

“Splash if putting someone to death is considered playing God. The argument can be made that giving a sentence of life w/o parole is likewise. Do you really have a life while facing your punishment? And also, who are we to punish others? Punishment only based on man's judgment anyways, which as we know is flawed. But still the fact remains that we must face the consequences of the choices we make daily.
I guess as a believer knowing better things are to come; I would rather die than face the agony of lifelong confinement.”

“all crazy, insane & retarded people should be killed now so they can't hurt anyone. who wants to live lke that? it costs money too. there, I feel a lot safer now”

“trailhound, unfortunately, there are no simplistic solutions. And for every possible solution, there are multiple opinions. The reality is that our corrections system has yet to find a way to effectively carry our rehabilitation. Therefore, the number of inmates who are repeat offenders is high, the number who are on the third go around is higher.

I certainly do not have a solution. After all, I spent 10 years trying to keep them out of jail. However, for the ones who are never going to be rehabilitated and will always be a menace to society, the current system is not a bad system. I do not support capital punishment, for many reasons, I never will. However, when considering our entire judicial system, I cannot fault the decision of the Supreme Court to allow states to carry out capital punishment. There are no easy solutions and this is an area that few people want to venture in regard to reforms.”

“I'm still up for stoning her, wonder if she'll cry how each one of her children did... how is killing off someone who's admitted they killed there children have anything to do with someone being put to death when they're innocent?

SHE KILLED HER CHILDREN, no if and or buts about it!


Yates screamed to her, "I was so stupid!"

"Couldn't I have killed just one to fulfill the prophecy?" Yates said. "Couldn't I have offered Mary?"”

“I agree the current system is and never will be perfect. The entire subject is so forbidden to even talk about. I really appreciate the your nonflaming discussion. Thanks again.”

“trailhound, I always believe that healthy discussion leads to the exchange of ideas. Any time a conversation causes me to evaluate my own beliefs as opposed to defend them, I am inclined to think that there is something to be learned.”

“LOL thanks nigal. Man where do you get some of this stuff.”

“How long does it take to apprehend a child, drag them to the bathroom and wrestle them into the bathtub and hold them under till dead? How long does it take to do that to 5 kids (OK, one of them was a helpless baby)? Now you'd think, no matter how mentally ill she was, SOMETIME during that entire episode the thought HAD to have crossed her mind that her actions were wrong!

I agree she shouldn't be put to death, and frankly, for ANYONE to drown their 5 kids, SOMETHING upstairs MUST be outta whack.

If Susan Smith didn't get the death penalty (and we all know her motive, how she drowned her kids, and how she lied about it to the her husband, the cops, her community, the press and to the whole world), then certainly Mrs.Yates also shouldn't be put to death.

I wonder what would've happened if her husband (a male who couldn't claim post-pardom depression, but another type of mental illness) if he would've done the kids that way. I'll bet the sentence would've been a whole lot different.”

“Sentence = verdict (I'll bet the "verdict"...)”

“It's just sick!

Thats all I have to say about that.

8|”

“No one mentchend it because we can all agrea that she is a sick fùck that diserves to rott in a prison in alaska and do nothing more for the rest of her life, but pick up litter on the highway, and chop block.”

“I agree!

8|”

“Thankyou for bringing some levity to the thread, Tea.”

“There's no doubt in my mind that husband should also face charges. He knew she was sick she told him and her Dr. she was afraid she'd hurt herself or the kids, yet he did nothing, he's free to go find another woman. Sire 5 more kids, an take no responsibility for what happens to them.”

“Why do the women want to blame the man?”

“First of all, it's important to remember that no matter what is done now 5 children are dead and that can't be undone. Prevention was possible here and that is where the father and grandparents were responsible. If a woman lets a man beat her children to death, she is held responsible for not taking action to prevent it, or for staying, or for leaving them in his care. And she can and often does face charges as a result. That is common practice and I don't need to provide examples. That is as it should be. People should be held responsible for bad judgement concerning their children's welfare.

This woman suffered from post partem depression with psychosis before. It was severe enough to prompt medical advice against ever having any more children. The father ignored that advice and made the mutual decision with his wife to have another child. Both he and her family knew that but did not take the precautions of monitoring her this time to be sure it didn't happen again, or make sure she got treatment if it did.

If your wife had suffered from psychotic episodes and suicidal tendencies in the past, would you leave her alone at all much less with your children? If a child care worker had a history of suicidal tendencies and psychosis, would you leave your children in his/her care? If your daughter had suffered from psychotic episodes and suicidal tendencies in the past, would you leave her alone at all much less with 5 children in her care?

I don't think they are responsible for the deaths of those children. I think they buried there heads in the sand and prayed everything would be ok. Or worse, knew what she was falling into and didn't care. Either way, they are lying either to themselves or to the world or both. They could have prevented this, that's where their responsibility lies.”

“Its not about placing blame on the husband.

And its not about relieving the woman of responsibility.

Its recognizing what went wrong.”

“Bacpac, if we didn't want to blame the man, that would be like saying that only a mother is responsible for her children, not the father. They were both responsible for the children's well-being. She is the murderer, but he is guilty of not protecting his children from her given that he had knowledge of her severe mental problems.”

“No use preaching to the lynch mob.”

“Wouldn't it have been nice if someone would have stepped in and forced her to use birth control after her first bout with post-partem depression? Of course, that would have flown like a lead balloon, since her rights would have been taken away from her, as I would imagine most women posting on this thread would agree.
It is a little tricky to say that someone should have stepped in and stopped this.”

“Right, Dunadan, the only sane person in a position to change the direction of the events was the husband.”

“Yeah, we could have court-mandated birth control for the husband. He would have said that it violated his right to practice his religion and had a lot of fundamentalists on his side.
I don't know if the man was responsible, because I think he is insane, too. It would be a good defense for him, anyway.”

“"Its not about placing blame on the husband.

And its not about relieving the woman of responsibility.

Its recognizing what went wrong."

Dang Tom. Your words are so clear and simple they totally convey your view and I can relate to your view. Why couldn't you post this yesterday rather than the bunch of the bunch of "the husband is a religious freak and a turd" crap you posted yesterday?”

“The husband IS a religious freak and a turd.

A Fundie-Taliban”

“So it was a moment of clarity and you still remain the shiftless shat you have always been? As long as I know what I'm dealing with. Don't ever let it happen again though. 8)”

“.......why bother preacing to the lynch mob~%?{}”

“If Andrea was insane and didn't know what she was doing, that's good, because then she won't know that they're gonna kill her.”

“"preacing"

WTH is preacing?”

“Its an abbreviated form of preaching.....”

“So you want to get him on some type of 'child endangerment' charges? Can we atleast put the murderer away 1st before we start trying any accomplices.

You all make it sound like she is insane 24/7/365 and never had any moments of saneness. How is she sick when she knows she was in the wrong? Isn't knowing that you are in the wrong a sign of saneness. Why didn't she take her own life? Was she not insane enough. I don't know how anyone could go on living knowing they just completely wiped out their family.”

“Me, I'll leave it to the judicial system.”

“"Its an abbreviated form of preaching....."

Christ Cliff Notes? How long do the sermans last? I may be on board depending.”

“Well, before you can make a truly intelligent and informed decision on this issue, you really should read this Important Study . I think they did an exceptional job on the photography for that article. Check it out.”

“How come when someone has a strong opinion on something they’re ignorant and an idiot?

How about they’ve thought it out and know where they stand…no ifs?”

“LMAO nigal! Where did you find that? No wait! Don't tell me! I changed my mind, I don't really want to know.”