Sky High Gasoline

“OOPS, I REALLY wasn't paying attention.... didn't realize we were no longer talking about sky-hi fuel prices.”

“Wanderer, sorry to throw attention off of your post. It was very good.

I see two difficulties. First, the transition to that new world will be problematic. So much really does depend on oil. Change will be wrenching.

Also, we might lose all the gain of energy conservation through the growth of emerging economies.

We live in a Wal-mart, cost-cutting world. How can we transition our economy when we buy so much from places like China that seem completely happy with oil-based existence? It is a recipe for massive job loss as we embrace less competitive energy sources and China and others stay behind.

Let's call it the new energy tax.”

“The key question is...

Are there there any goals more important than the lowest price?

We haven't shown any willingness to go beyond that question.”

“RL, your points are valid but I am convinced that we in the U.S. are due for some massive changes regardless of whether we want them or not, and whether they are painful or not. Fuel prices are only one issue... we also have Social Security problems to solve, a whole debate (a serious one, not the @#@ that has taken place to-date) re capitalism / socialism, the role of government / role of individuals, there are also pretty serious health-care issues we should be discussing that will bankrupt us if we don't act before all the baby boomers start retiring en-masse.

Some painful decisions are ahead in many areas, I just think we, as a society, need to pull our heads out of the sand & address them.”

“I agree completely, wanderer.

But what needs to happen before a full-scale push for alternative energy is some kind of worldwide framework in which that change can happen.

A country like the United States should not be forced to accept goods from a country like China produced using fossil fuels when the US is trying to use less economic alternative fuels.

It requires a complete rethinking of the approach.

BTW, the same is true about health care and labor standards. We need an international framework - how about a one world government, hehe - in which countries can penalize those who don't comply.

Otherwise the change will just leave us weak and capable of being exploited.

Of course, we can't even have that conversation because we completely ignore international action and standards.”

“We can't wait or depnd upon some world-wide change or shift, that will take generations & generations to occur.. for goodness sakes, we're at war with people who still live in caves!

We need to be in charge of our own destiny. I'm not preaching strict isolationism, but we do need to evaluate the criteria we want to place on our trading partners. And people here need to realize that if they want to continue to buy goods that are cheaper, knowing full well those product are made in sweat-shops etc., then we have no-one but ourselves to blame for our economic problems here.

Consumers need to put a value on their purchases, and it's not just the up-front purchase price, but they should have a deeper understanding of global economics and the ramifications to US workers of their continued purchase of iports from 3rd world countries, and others, that don't share our value system for employment, worker integrity, environmental concerns, etc.

So... in summary... I believe that the solution, as it almost always is, lies in more education of the consumer and more self-responsibility to make the right decisions. The government isn't going to solve all these problems, the people have to accept some responsibility for their habits. "I want, I want, I want" at cheapest price, while simultaneously lobbying for endless increased benefits & higher wages from their labor unions are incompatible desires.

Rant over.
last edited: 8/14/05 11:50:44 PM”

“I drive a Chevy V8 with a broken transmission that gets 12MPG!!! And i drive 40k miles a year!! God I love these prices...”

“Ewker - Are you pretending to be stupid now? You said I don't know what hardships are, yet I do know what they are. You're trying to make it this about me (again). When people have hardships, they sacrifice. Maybe you didn't know the 2 go hand in hand!?

You've got it good. There is NOBODY in the United States that has it as bad as some of the people I know, with the possible exception of mentally ill people who choose not to receive aid or go unnoticed. I'm talking about whole towns where people live like that man. Don't you get it? You've got it good. You live in luxery.

You don't get it. That's your problem. The poor people in this country live above their own means. The poor in this country have automobiles, microwaves ovens, multiple televisions, x-Boxs, plenty of food - enough to make them fat, an endless supply of clothing ... And I'm talking about the POOR! Don't talk to me about your hardships Ewker as you then go to a football game miles away and fill up on beer and pizza.

You should be embarrassed.

rl - Grow up.”

“EVERYBODY! YOU SHOULD BE EMBARRASSED!

YOU LIVE IN LUXERY! YOU'VE GOT IT GOOD!

YOU'RE ACTING SHAMEFUL WITH YOUR GREED!

YOU PEOPLE HAVE SEVERAL TELEVISIONS, SOURCES OF MUSIC, AUTOMOBILES, COMPUTERS, GAME SYSTEMS, REFRIGERATORS, MICROWAVE OVENS, WASHING MACHINES, DISHWASHERS, PLENTY OF FOOD, MORE FOOD, EXTRA FOOD ON TOP OF THAT, ENOUGH FOOD TO MAKE YOU SICK, MEDICINES FOR ALMOST ANYTHING YOU CAN IMAGINE, SOME OF THE BEST HEALTHCARE IN THE WORLD, EDUCATIONAL RESOURCES OF ANY TYPE IMAGINABLE ...

In England, one of the more civil societies on the planet, where the prices are 3 times what they are here, they'd call you an "ungrateful lot".”

“One thing that I noticed over the last 20 years is that there are many more vehicles on the road. I live about a half mile from an interstate highway and I remember 20 years ago when I could easily cross it to get into the woods to go hiking. Now you'd have a hard time because traffic is so heavy with not only cars, but lines of trucks too. It also seems pollution is worse because of it. If I hike above the valley I can see a layer of smog on most days. 20 years ago I don't remember seeing that. So more trucks and cars, more consumption of fuel. Cars are cleaner than they were, but trucks don't seem to be. Maybe using the railroads more might help by taking some trucks off the highways. Public transportation is great if you have it in your area, but in the U.S. it just isn't developed enough like it is in Europe.”

“RichB - Living in PA, you should know that public transportation doesn't work. With the exception of maybe NY, it's a failed system. Maybe you're not from east PA. In Philadelphia the system is in shambles. It's in dire need of increased state funding because people don't use it enough to pay for it. Imagine using that system in a non-urban area. It would be completely useless. The bus system in Harrisburg is plentiful, yet hardly anybody rides them. The only time I've ever seen any bus more than 1/8 full is on 9/11. I think if public transportation actually worked it would be an EXCELLENT idea, but the reality is it does not work. People are very willing to pay high gas prices and auto loans for the LUXERY of being able to drive to work and home at their own convenience.”

“The reason for that is because in most cities that have buses they only go to few locations and with limited schedules. You just can't depend on a bus to take you everywhere you need to go. So what do you do if don't have a vehicle? Being a cyclist, I'll be the first to say that riding a bike is great for some people, but not everyone can pedal to every destination because of time limitations and health problems. A motorcycle works well to get around locally and I use one most times of the year except for colder months. 80 miles per gallon beats any car on the road and insurance is cheap.”

“sarge, the vein in your forehead is pulsating

:-P”

“sarge, the vein in your forehead is pulsating - c!

The capital letters are for getting people's attention. It's not real yelling, regardless of what some people seem to think.

richB - I think in Harrisburg it would be easier to name the places that buses do NOT go than where they do go. They're all over the place, they're just empty. The concept is GREAT, but the reality of implementation is weak at best.”

“lol C!B!
He sure gets himself worked up wrt other people's business.”

“Worked up? You guys are the ones complaining about the gas prices! LOL! Greedy whiners!

It cracks me up how if you write in all caps people think you're "all worked up". Sheep.”

“You don't have any ideas of value to defend so you make this about me. typical”

“He's sort of a "Mothering type" wouldn't you say? ;) Always worried about what other people are doing.

RichB,FYI, Soon emission standards will be much much stricter for big trucks (semis). So much so that the governement gave the manufacturers several years to accomplish the feat. My dad just retired from Ford, his last job was working on big truck emission standards. Wish I could remember what year the change happens. Just know it's coming soon.
last edited: 8/15/05 8:14:57 AM”

“Sass - It's called debate/discussion. Others are the ones making it about me. I'm trying to discuss a political topic. You and others are making it personal. You never did buy that mirror.”

“Nigal - Be specific.”

“I read a good article recently that described the US energy policy (if you can call it that) as "scavenging" rather than "harvesting". We spend all our time and money looking for ways to dig deeper into the sources of energy we are already dependant on. Eventually the economics of supply and demand will change that. I am betting we’ll be the last ones to make that shift and when we do so we’ll probably be a follower and not a leader.”

“sarge, definitions for you

hard·ship: (härdshp)
n.
Extreme privation; suffering.
A cause of privation or suffering.

hardship

n 1: a state of misfortune or affliction; "debt-ridden farmers struggling with adversity"; "a life of hardship" [syn: adversity, hard knocks] 2: something hard to endure; "the asperity of northern winters" [syn: asperity, grimness, rigor, rigour, severity, rigorousness] 3: something that causes or entails suffering; "I cannot think it a hardship that more indulgence is allowed to men than to women"- James Boswell; "the many hardships of frontier life


sac·ri·fice: (skr-fs)
n.

The act of offering something to a deity in propitiation or homage, especially the ritual slaughter of an animal or a person.
A victim offered in this way.

Forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim.
Something so forfeited.

Relinquishment of something at less than its presumed value.
Something so relinquished.
A loss so sustained.
Baseball. A sacrifice hit or sacrifice fly.

v. sac·ri·ficed, sac·ri·fic·ing, sac·ri·fic·es
v. tr.
To offer as a sacrifice to a deity.
To forfeit (one thing) for another thing considered to be of greater value.
To sell or give away at a loss.

v. intr.
To make or offer a sacrifice.
Baseball. To make a sacrifice hit or sacrifice fly.



I had beer and pizza at the game...damn I didn't know that. You sound jealous that you couldn't go to the game.

Only person on here who needs to be embarrassed is you. I said it before and I will tell you again you need help. You have some serious problems. I seriously doubt you could have a discussion with anyone face to face without getting the urge to hurt them. You have already threated one person on here. If anyone needs to grow up it is you.”

“Ewker - BE SPECIFIC.”

“Ewker - I realize they are 2 different words. This is why I previously hinted that you don't realize the 2 go hand in hand.

I did not threaten anybody on here.

You guys are complaining and whining about petty things. You need help.”

“Sarge - BE SPECIFIC”

“Ok. About what?”

“lol @ gramps”

“Geo - Mutt is LOLing you. Good job!”

“Mutt - stop making this thread about me.”

“Ok, about me!

I'm an American (sarge says I am an america hater) who drives almost everywhere he goes. Rarely do I share a ride more than once. Considered agressive on the road in America, I fit in well in Italian cities. Comparing the cost of fuel in USA to the cost in other nations is foolish.
I remember a joke that had something to do with a moped and the size of a woman. Fun to ride, wouldn't want to be seen on one. I'm kinda thinking that mopeds will become popular very soon.”

“I hope the prices go even higher, as it will sway more people to stand behind the ideal of Pax Americana: I'd like to see a massive increase in military spending, coupled with "war on terror" military interventions in resource (oil) rich countries.

Peak oil is here - it's only a matter of time before the world is dragged into economic depression. The longer the U.S. can remain at the top, the less harsh the depression will be for everyone. And that means we need control of resources. That's the future - it's time for the blissninnies to accept it.”

“All hail Julius Mutt, a Caesar for the 21st Century. Maybe they'll name a salad dressing for ya.”

“Nationwide Gas Prices Set Another Record By GARY GENTILE, AP Business Writer
32 minutes ago (off Yahoo News)

LOS ANGELES - Retail gas prices hit another record high over the past three weeks, mirroring a rapid increase in the cost of crude oil, according to a nationwide survey released Sunday.

The average price for all three grades rose nearly 20 cents to $2.53 in the three weeks ending Aug. 12, said Trilby Lundberg, who publishes the semimonthly Lundberg Survey of 7,000 gas stations around the country. The figures were not adjusted for inflation.

In the same three-week period, crude oil price futures rose about $8.21. A barrel of oil produces about 42 gallons of gasoline, resulting in a price increase of 19.6 cents per gallon — nearly identical to the 19.8 cent rise in the price of gas at the pumps, Lundberg said.

There was scant good news for consumers in the latest report.

Demand for gas will remain high through August, but should drop after Labor Day. Prices should soften after that assuming underlying crude oil prices hold stable and refinery activity and shipments aren't interrupted by natural disasters, such as major hurricanes, Lundberg said.

Retail prices have risen an average of 70 cents since the beginning of the year and are up 62.7 cents from last August, Lundberg said.

Still, adjusted for inflation, prices have yet to climb to the record levels reached in the 1980s.

Gas prices in March 1981 would be $3.03 per gallon expressed in today's dollars, Lundberg said, while a barrel of oil would be about $90.

"I'm feeling it," said driver Adolfo Fernandez, a Los Angeles resident who was filling his BMW Sunday with premium unleaded at a cost of $2.97 per gallon. "I feel sorry for the people who really feel it and can't afford it."

According to the survey, self-serve regular averaged $2.50 a gallon nationwide. Midgrade was pegged at $2.59, with premium-grade was at $2.69.

Among the stations included in the survey, the highest price for unleaded regular was in San Diego at $2.76. The best deal was in Cheyenne, Wyo., at $2.31 a gallon.”

“I hope the under developed contries don't find a way to bypass the fossil fuel trap.That would be disaster for my oil stocks.”

“I appoligize if someone posted this already.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/15/hybrid.tinkerers.ap/index.html”

“Forgive me if this was posted before.

http://newsbusters.org/node/260”

“If you look at Ewkers post you will read that we are not at record highs adjusted for inflation. Be patient Sarge we will get there.

Still, adjusted for inflation, prices have yet to climb to the record levels reached in the 1980s.

Gas prices in March 1981 would be $3.03 per gallon expressed in today's dollars, Lundberg said, while a barrel of oil would be about $90.”

“bateaux - I know. I wasn't critical of his post. Geez.”

“CNN is on the ball today.

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

Gas prices around the world

Think you pay a lot for gas?Perhaps you'd prefer to live in Venezuela.”

“Taxes are not raising our gas prices, I wish they were. Greed and profoiteering are raising our gas/energy prices, and the beneficieries are large companies. The losers are 99.9% of the people that post here, the environment and Sarge (because he's a loser in general).”

“sarge, gas prices have always been higher in other countries than what we have. It isn't like we are catching up with them, there prices are going up also. You act like their high prices are something new.”

“saw 2.71 today for the cheap stuff.”

“I saw one of the cool new Chevy crossover vehicles today. Sweet styl and it's supposed to get 400 miles per tankful of gas.



http://www.chevrolet.com/hhr06/”

“Ewker - Yeah, and we should be grateful for it. Why should you get another discount? Because you're an American?”

“nigal I saw one of those the other day and thought "GM makes a PT crusier?".”

“who said anything about a discount. Our prices have been lower due to technology. Price per barrel is the same to them as it is to us.
last edited: 8/15/05 8:07:04 PM”

“You want a discounted price at the pump. No? You want to pay what you are paying?”

“as usual you take things out of context”

“How so? You want to pay a lower price than people in other countries. It's that simple. But, to acknowledge that would be "out of context". Right? Yeah ... ok. You need to turn off your computer, it's taking up too much electricity which you could use to pay for gasoline. But, you obviously aren't too worried about that, unless you get a chance to complain about it.”